Thursday, March 17, 2011

Lentenor to Race Saturday at Keeneland

Here we go again.  Lentenor is entered in race #8 at Keeneland on Saturday, a $49,000 allowance race at 1 1/8 miles on the All Weather Track, post time is 4:52.  Lentenor drew the outside position in the field of eleven.  While I would have preferred a different gate, it shouldn’t make that much difference due to the length of the race, I hope!

 This will be Lentenor’s second time racing on Keeneland’s All Weather Surface.  He started his career at Keeneland back on October 31 of last year, an impressive third place finish with Julien Leparoux on board.  This time, Robby Albarado will get the mount on Lentenor; Julien will be on board the Christophe Clement trained colt, Alcomatch.   Fans might remember Robby Albarado because he was Curlin’s regular jockey, or when he finished third behind Barbaro in the 2006 Kentucky Derby aboard Steppenwolfer.   Lentenor is in good hands with a jockey that has won over 4,000 races and knows the track at Keeneland.   Looking at this field, it isn’t nearly as tough as his last race but still a decent field.  Lentenor should be the class of the race, but he does need to perform better than his 7th place finish in the Grade III Kent Stakes back on September 25.  Since that race, Lentenor has had one work.  It was this past Saturday on the dirt track at Fair Hill where he went four furlongs in  :48.20.  In that work, he fired a bullet by going the fastest of nine who worked, besting his big brother Nicanor by .40 of a second.  Lentenor left his home at Fair Hill on Monday for his trip to Keeneland. 

Up to this race, Lentenor’s has hit the board five times in his seven starts, winning one and finishing second and third twice, including a fourth place finish in the Grade I Florida Derby with earnings of $84,010.  A victory Saturday would put Lentenor over the $100,000 mark, fingers crossed!

A look at the field:

1. Running Tempo 20-1, this four year old gelding has had six career starts, hitting the board five times with two wins.  His last start was a one mile allowance race at Presque Isle Downs on September 9th, finishing fourth in the field of six.  Trained by Lori Smock and ridden by Carlos Montalvo.

2. Brave Prospect 15-1, has finished in the money four times with one victory in eight career starts.  His last start was on August 29th at Arlington Park where he finished third out of six in the one mile allowance race.  Michael Stidham trains this three year old gelding and Michael Baze will get the mount.

3. Spartan King 10-1,  Miguel Mena will be on the four year old gelding, who is trained by Vernon Coyle.  Spartan King will be making his sixteeenth start of his career.  His most recent start at Presque Isle Downs on September 25th he finished well to get second place in the 1 1/8 mile allowance race.  He has raced five times this year, having one victory, two seconds and placing third once.

4. Indianapolis 10-1, for some reason this four year old gelding worries me.  He is trained by Kenneth McPeek and will be ridden by Calvin Borel.  He won two races back in his 5th race of the year at Saratoga on August 5th, and it was his seventh try at breaking his maiden.  Prior to that race, he came in fifth in his only start on the All Weather Track at Keeneland. 

5. Heart Butte 7-2, this three year old colt is trained by Todd Pletcher and John Velazquez will be on him.  He beat Drosselmeyer in his second career start at Keeneland on Oct. 24 of last year.  That is his only win in five career starts, but he has had trouble at the start in a few races.  He flattened out in the stretch in his last race at Saratoga on August 21st to finish in 5th place.  He is surely one to watch, especially with a good start.

6. Bull Hole 10-1, Why would you name a colt “Bull Hole”?  Anyway, this three year old colt finished  sixth  in Lentenor’s return to the track on August 24th at Delaware Park, Lentenor ended up finishing third.  Ramon Dominquez will be aboard this H. Graham Motion trained colt.  Bull Hole finished second last out at Delaware Park on September 25.  He has a career mark of one win and three seconds in seven lifetime starts.

7. Palatine Hill 20-1, a big step up in class for this three year old gelding.  He did break his maiden in his first career start at Mountaineer on September 15th though.  Greta Kuntzweiler will get the mount on this Eduardo Caramori trained gelding.

8. Alcomatch 5-1, finished last in a field of ten last time out at Saratoga on September 3rd , getting  slammed at the start, which ruined any chance he had in this race.  Two races back, he had another rough start, but finished well to get up for fourth at Saratoga on August 7th.  His best race was at Keeneland on April 8th where he broke his maiden in convincing fashion, coming from far back to get up just in time.  Watch for this guy to be flying at the end!

9. Yankee Scholar 15-1, Another three year old in this field that is trained by Todd Pletcher.  Yankee Scholar broke his maiden in his fifth career start in his last race at Turfway Park on September 26.  This will be a jump up in class and Joel Rosario will be his jockey.

10. Guys Reward 4-1, this three year old will be making his fourteenth start of his young career, hitting the board six times with one victory.  He has been in some very tough races with good colts.  Don’t let his record fool you, he could be very tough.  Trained by Dale Romans and ridden by Corey Lanerie, he is one to watch also.

11. LENTENOR 3-1, the class of the field, enough said.

After looking at the field, of course I believe Lentenor is the class of the race.  I envision Robby taking Lentenor back in a good stalking position going into the first turn, hopefully mid pack.  I don’t see a lot of speed up front, so I expect Lentenor to stay close to the front down the backstretch.  I think the biggest problem last race was that Lentenor was too far back and had too much to do going for home against a very tough field.  He could get away with that against this weaker field, but I would prefer him to stay close, maybe even taking the lead going into far turn?  Even if he is third or fourth coming for home, I think he can lengthen his stride down the stretch and pass this field and get the victory.  My biggest concern isn’t the field, but his trip during the race.  There could very easily be traffic issues with the size of the field, if Robby can guide Lentenor free of that, then I don’t see how he could lose this race.

Photos of Lentenor at Delaware Park on September 25: 
Photos by Greg Jones.















385 Comments:

LOVE all the pictures--he is just a stunning horse!  Thanks for the great in depth horse by horse analysis--I am hoping for a big WIN here from Lentenor!
HSLewis 14 Oct 2010 3:26 PM
He's gotten to be so big!  Wish for him a safe trip above all and a successful trip if at all possible.  we love you, beautiful boy!
Cal Gal 14 Oct 2010 3:32 PM
The Dynaformer - La Ville Rouge cross sure makes attractive horses. If their offspring were people they would be billboard models.
Fuzzy Corgi 14 Oct 2010 3:33 PM
Based on the information given, and the way Keeneland has played this past weekend and given his post position, I'd want Robby to scoot him out of there and clear as many as he can prior to that first turn. He's breaking from the outside, so he should have clear sailing the whole way. Keeneland was playing to speed all weekend, so I think by being in the top flight would suit him. This would also help to negate a wide trip if he were to take back, IMO.
The Rock 14 Oct 2010 3:49 PM
lets hope for a good trip and also hopefully see him in the winners circle!!!
Maggie 14 Oct 2010 3:56 PM
GregJ
What can I say, your pictures leave my heart thumping..just beautiful...God Bless Lentenor!!!! let him run,win and have lots of fun doing it....he is always in my prayers!!!
That 2nd picture sure reminded me of Barbaro!!
Ragsy 14 Oct 2010 4:01 PM
Bring Lentenor home safely, Robby.
Matt D 14 Oct 2010 4:32 PM
Thank you for the pictures Greg. My best wishes to Lentenor for a safe and ultimately a winning race. He deserves a win and I believe he will do it this Saturday.
Kathy 14 Oct 2010 4:42 PM
Fingers and toes will be crossed for our boy. Hopefully he will get to the winners circle in this race and if not there are more races in his future as he matures more. I will be yelling for him but regardless still love our boy.  Oh also Lael/Jacksons  have another entry in the 9th race "Check The Label" so lets hope it is race 8 and 9 duo wins for such terrific owners.
lobieb 14 Oct 2010 4:46 PM
From DRF. Thought the second paragraph was amusing...
"Lentenor tries Polytrack in search of second victory
When talking about bloodlines, retired trainer Frank Brothers liked to say: “Mrs. Mays had nine boys, but only one Willie.” In actuality, Mrs. Mays had far fewer kids, but the point was well made: Just because you’re related to a great athlete doesn’t necessarily mean you’ll be one, too.
The subject is relevant in the case of a first-level allowance on Polytrack (race 8) Saturday at Keeneland, where Lentenor will start from the far outside post. A 3-year-old colt by Dynaformer out of the mare La Ville Rouge, Lentenor is a full brother to the legendary Barbaro, who would have been 7 if he hadn’t died in January 2007 as a result of injuries suffered in the Preakness the previous year.
Unlike Barbaro, Lentenor has mostly struggled, winning just once in seven starts. He might not even be favored Saturday for the familiar owner-trainer team of Lael Stables and Michael Matz.
“His two races this summer at Delaware Park were sort of disappointing, and the course was kind of chewed up both times, but he did come out of the last one really good,” said Matz. “We’ve wanted to try him back on the dirt or Poly, and with Check the Label in the Queen Elizabeth, the owners have something more to watch Saturday. We’re hoping he runs good.”
The Rock 14 Oct 2010 4:59 PM
Greg, great pictures.  He looks really good.  I hope he runs well and gets a new picture of him in the winners circle!!!
Deby 14 Oct 2010 5:01 PM
Good luck to Lentenor and Check the Label.  Safe trips to all.
JAJ, is it the camera angle or is Lentenor's point of hip- to point of buttock- to stifle (Thigh I guess) really that long (bones) and big?
Right now it's got me thinking "sprinter"...
Horsefirst 14 Oct 2010 5:59 PM
YIPPY! HOORAY! and YAHOO!  Our big beautiful boy Lentenor is racing again.  Let's hope that after he wins this race he can really  get his hooves under him and keep winning.  Best Wishes and Good Racing Luck.  Run swiftly and safely.
I see Nicanor is working again too.
Does this mean we may be seeing him again in the near future.  Finally is there any word on how Margano is doing with his school work and how is our lovely LaVille doing?  PS.  May the Lael/Jackson team have an outstanding day at the races.
Zowie 14 Oct 2010 6:00 PM
I believe his best surface is dirt-just a though from his turf races, his maiden on the all weather, and the Florida Derby on dirt was by far his best race-he ran into a bit of a tight spot coming into the turn, had to be checked up a bit, and his confidence was probably shaken a bit, he still finished less than 5 lengths behind the winners thoguh
RachelFan 14 Oct 2010 6:19 PM
Very cool news!  Thanks for the update and information, Greg, and of course, for the fabulous photos.  Lentenor is such a gorgeous horse.  I will be hoping for a safe race and a big win.
txhorsefan 14 Oct 2010 6:40 PM
Run like the wind Lentenor your big brother and little sister will guide you home safely. We all know you can do it. Have a very safe trip and we'll meet you in the winners circle. All the FOB's have faith in you and support you in every way. WE LOVE YOU BIG BOY!!
Hope the Jackson's have a great day at Keenland. GO CHECk THE LABEL.
Lou in TX 14 Oct 2010 6:54 PM
The Rock,
Thanks for the quote from Michael
Greg,
Great pics and blog
MJ 14 Oct 2010 7:05 PM
HorseFirst,
A sprinter's stifle is usually high and Lentenor's does not look that way at all.  I guess that would be because the femur is "shorter" in sprinters than in middle and long distance horses.  Look at it in comparison to the sheath.  Lentenor's stifle looks well below his sheath.
I don't know that you can look at a horse and tell they will sprint or route.  You sort of can, but you really have to run them to find out where they belong.
Some horses are sprinters because some problem prevents them from being able to race a route distance.  Some are sprinters because they are successful at the distance and no one wants to change anything when they are being successful.  Why fix something that ain't broke?
Midnight Lute was a sprinter because he had a breathing problem.  Some are sprinters because they don't have the mind to be a route horse, which often requires a horse to relax.  Some route because they don't have any speed and can just gallop along forever.
You want a big hip on a horse regardless of the best distance for that particular horse.  The "hip" is the line between the hip bones (almost at the same height as the back) and the point of the buttocks.  A distance horse "tends" to have less rear than a sprinter type.
There must be a reason that Matz is always running Lentenor at around 9f.  I would like to see both horses shortened up, but I don't have the information that Matz has so really haven't a clue.  It is just a feeling I have watching their races.
JAJ 14 Oct 2010 7:11 PM
Here's hoping for a safe trip and bringing home the win!! Go Lenny
Rita 14 Oct 2010 7:30 PM
Thanks Greg!
Go Lentenor! Godspeed to you in your race, run fast, and be safe!
horsenut23 14 Oct 2010 7:38 PM
Oh, by the way Greg....loved all the pics of Lentenor and thanks for such a great post about his up coming race. Hope you can get some rest now.
If you hear anything about Margano leaving for Fla. please keep us informed. It should be any time now. What an exciting time for the Jackson's and all the FOB's. We have a lot to be greatful for.
Lou in TX 14 Oct 2010 7:39 PM
What a bonus with those stunning photos. What a great place to come for info. The notes on each horse are a big help.liking that.Keep us posted. Go Lentenor.
jane 14 Oct 2010 8:10 PM
I'm going to the races Friday. I was so upset to find out I was missing Lentenor by a day. Good luck baby boy!
MRO 14 Oct 2010 8:34 PM
I'm so glad Lentenor has Robby riding him Saturday.  Between the two of them I really think they can smoke 'em!  You can do it Big Guy!
Texjoy 14 Oct 2010 9:29 PM
Lentenor win or not you are so handsome!Robby will give you a good ride.Love you sweet boy!
Tracy 14 Oct 2010 9:43 PM
God Bless and God Speed for a safe and winning trip.  You've got one helluva a of Great Jock - he did wonders for Curlin.  No reason for Lentenor not to cruise home way out in front.  No matter what the outcome, I will always Love you for who you are, and what you represent.  Big Brother will be watching, guiding you home safe.
Robin from Maryland 14 Oct 2010 9:51 PM
Thanks for the in depth on the field and Go Lentenor!
Derby132 14 Oct 2010 9:56 PM
Thanks for the heads up, Greg. You did an outstanding job analyzing the competition and let'shope your take is right on for Lentenor. He has the talent, I don't care what the record shows. No excuses, just the way it is. A break here and there and his win percentages would be competely different. I do wish he had a regular rider, one that really had the chance to know him and his capabilities. Sometimes knowing more gives the rider something to draw on during the race that will make a difference. I sure do love your pictures of him, in some of them you see Dynaformer and in the last picture you see La Ville Rouge's kind eye. Beautiful, just beautiful.
Good luck to all on Saturday and wouldn't it be great for the Jacksons if Check The Label wins?    
Dona 14 Oct 2010 9:59 PM
Thank you, Greg, for the beautiful pictures. Lennie, lots of love and run safe, our precious one!
Nicky, hope to see you soon. Wish we could actually see some of the workouts. Love to you both!
sandieh 14 Oct 2010 10:29 PM
Thank you Greg for the gorgeous pictures of Lentenor.  He is so handsome and looks more like  Barbaro than Nicanor does.
All the best on Saturday.  May he finish safely and end up in the winner's circle.  Also good luck to Check the Label.
Chris K 14 Oct 2010 10:45 PM
hope he wins big this time so every body can see his potential realized. it must get frustrating when a horse keeps having bad luck. but i read some where that Dynaformer's offspring are late developers. so, maybe patience is needed. if he doesn't turn out to be a good race horse maybe they'll geld him and train him to do something else. my suggestion to his connections would be to geld him anyway. see what happens then.
christy tate 14 Oct 2010 11:34 PM
We wish Lentenor the very best in the 8th at Keeneland on Saturday,
before that on Friday at the northern English track Redcar,Lael
Stables will give the young 2 year
old filly full sister to Enticing,
Map Of Heaven her second lifetime
start.A very promising 5th of 14 in her omly start so far she should come on for the run and I am
looking forward to seeing what she can do.
John T 15 Oct 2010 12:08 AM
John T,
Please let us know how she does on Friday
Go Lentenor
Mj 15 Oct 2010 7:38 AM
John T
Please let us know how Map of Heaven did in her race as I am not familiar with getting results from overseas.  Thanks
lobieb 15 Oct 2010 8:45 AM
I believe Lenny will win tomorrow and I pray for a safe trip for all.
Marilyn 15 Oct 2010 9:01 AM
Yay Lentenor! I missed him at Keeneland last year (out of town) but I'll be there rooting him on tomorrow. Thanks for the info!
Sarah 15 Oct 2010 10:40 AM
I'll certainly be rooting for Lentenor and Robby tomorrow and wish them the very best.  
Thanks so much for the update and all the wonderful pics.  
Love 'em all! 15 Oct 2010 11:22 AM
Great pictures...love the close ups.  Still hoping the under dogs (or should i say horses) at least place.
Can't wait to watch race.
SASSY SALLY 15 Oct 2010 11:42 AM
Another great job, Greg.  Giving us so many details of the field was great - took some homework on your part (but maybe you already knew it all - lol) but really gives us an idea of who Lentenor is up against.  Your opinions are always made after careful thought, so I consider them valid.  I so hope for a win.  It seems pretty important right now, doesn't it?  Prayers for the safety of all in the field.  Thanks again for your wonderful way of giving us a glimpse into the brothers' racing careers.
chrys 15 Oct 2010 2:17 PM
I'll be sure to watch tomorrow via TVG. Win, lose, or draw I love these boys.
GO LENTENOR!!
Meghan 15 Oct 2010 2:19 PM
Greg , thank you for the great commentary and thoughts in your blog , and the pictures were an added attraction that made it perfect. So glad to see this info on Lentenor.
BobbieB 15 Oct 2010 2:24 PM
Thank you Bloodhorse for keeping us informed on Lentenor and Nicanor. A proud Fan of Barbaro! and just love his brothers.
Greg is doing a great JOB!  Thanks for keeping us all updated on the race's.
Debbie1948 15 Oct 2010 6:09 PM
Hey GREG
Thanks for all the information and great pictures.BTW I know a certain "other" host that's going to be sick after the Classic. lol
Mike Relva 15 Oct 2010 6:11 PM
Greg,thanks for the wonderful pictures.  Lentenor looks so lean and muscled up, he is so handsome.  Have a safe trip Lentenor and a winning one.  We love our boys!!!
Penny in TX 15 Oct 2010 6:48 PM
Go Lenny Go!
LindaVA 15 Oct 2010 8:20 PM
Awesome pictures and great in-depth analysis of field for 10/16/10 race #8 @ Keeneland. You must of stayed up all night to research all these horses.. Just kidding. One of your best post to this blog. Keep up the GREAT work.
Dan H 15 Oct 2010 8:49 PM
For what it's worth, Lentenor has the deep chest that Barbaro had.  He is such a beautiful boy and may he run safely and well tomorrow.
Marigold 15 Oct 2010 9:51 PM
To the folks who have asked how
Map Of Heaven performed to-day in
England,she ran very well.Going off
as the second choice that,s were she finished second in a field of eleven behind the favourite.Still
a little green she showed the expected improvement and should mature as a 3 year old.Good luck to
Lentenor to-morrow at Keeneland.
John T 15 Oct 2010 9:53 PM
How stunning is he?? Good luck Lentenor!
Cassidy 15 Oct 2010 11:12 PM
John T,
Thanks. Sounds like she has some potential
Mj 16 Oct 2010 12:32 AM
Lentenor, you handsome dude, run like the wind today and don't look back, just forward.  See you in the winner's circle.  Love you.
HaleyB 16 Oct 2010 10:08 AM
FYI,
We are down to a field of ten,
The #2 horse, Brave Prospect, has been scratched.  He was at 15-1 in the morning line odds.  Hope it was a trainer/owner decision and not due to being injured.
All in all, this helps Lentenor, as he is now one spot closer from the eleven hole.
Greg J. 16 Oct 2010 10:25 AM
Good Luck to the Jacksons today with Lentenor & Check the Label. She's a nice filly. Im a little worried about the 11 post, but I think Lentenor prefers to be outside horses. He is in exceptionally capable hands under Alberado. I trully hope today is his day.
Christy, I very much doubt that gelding is anywhere in Lentenor's future. He may not have the credentials to stand in Kentucky,yet, but as a Marylander, Im sure we would be very proud to have him here.
Greg, The pictures are awesome. Thank you for sharing.
Criminal Type 16 Oct 2010 11:38 AM
Christy, what is it that gelding would do for Lentenor?  In other words, why should he be gelded?
Go Lentenor -- fly like the wind today!
Cal Gal 16 Oct 2010 12:19 PM
Re: Gelding
JAJ can probably answer this better but in general, gelding can help a horse focus better.  Sometimes, as stallions, they can have their minds on other things.  Plus gelding tends to calm them down if they are kind of wound up.  There are some race horses who would not have been what they became without gelding.  So, you have a conundrum sometimes.  There is no going back after gelding so you lose the stud value.  On the other hand, there may have been no stud value (Because of improved performance) without gelding.  It's a coin toss sometimes.
Folks, most colts are gelded and usually pretty early. Unless you have a stellar breed candidate and you are experienced and have the facilities for stallions, the ability to promote them, and the desire to promote the breed, better off having a gelding. It's only the race horses that I think are left entire as long as some are.
Look at all the Thoroughbred stallions that are currently at stud, plus those that are retiring to the barn, and those coming up.  There is no shortage of TB stallions.
I think with Lentenor, I don't see a need to geld to improve performance.  Nicanor, on the other hand, might be a little less willful and more focused on the rider if gelded.  That's up to the Jackson's and what they think the future is for the horse.
Horsefirst 16 Oct 2010 1:36 PM
JAJ,
Thanks for your response about sprinters.  I think you're right about the stifle but I look at the stifle and the elbow. Both should be on a par and yes, generally, a stifle higher than the elbow is characteristic of a sprinter and also a downhill build. (Even if the withers are higher than the croup)  I think Lentenor's is just a touch higher than the elbow but would need a proper conformation photo to judge.  It was just the long bones in his rear end that got me- don't see that so much nowdays in TB's.
I'd like to see Nicanor shortened up in his races but Lentenor...who knows if he'd run better shorter or longer?  Both have Carson City in the background and in spite of the Dynaformer, that shorter running influence may have come through.
Have you had any experience with a horse throwing back to the dam sire?  I sure have and am wondering if that happens all that often.
Horsefirst 16 Oct 2010 1:49 PM
His beautiful face has all the charm, grace, and character of his mom and brothers. He has his sire's fiery eye; but...wow...check out the lines, balance, and strength in that physique!  LENTENOR is indeed "the body beautiful!"
Go in speed and power, Dear Boy!  Hoping for a win for you today, but most of all, come home safe.
Your FOB Fren, O
Otherlyn 16 Oct 2010 2:01 PM
This is a sincere request for opinion from - maybe JAJ or Mike Relva? In the photos of both Len and Nic, I worry about the apparent angle and twist of the rear leg in many of the photos. Is this camera angle or a trait? Some photos of Barbaro showed this too and I am left to wonder - - - . Also, Len seems really tucked up. Again, maybe camera angle - poor Greg, we can't expect you to be B. Livingston so please don't take offense. I know horses pretty well, and have a fair educational background in them, but my mind gets rattled with B's family.
diastu 16 Oct 2010 2:53 PM
Diatsu,
I don't know what you mean about the "apparent angle and twist of the rear leg."  It looks fine to me.  He is being photographed while moving, not standing.
You do mention that he looks tucked up.  Some of that is the photos, but not all.  He will have been given Lasix, a serious diuretic many hours before the race.  His water bucket will have been pulled as soon as he was given Lasix.  Horses loose a lot of fluids once they have been given Lasix--they urinate it out.  He'll be a different looking horse a day or two after the race if he came out of the race well.
Lasix is given to decrease/eliminate bleeding (exercise induced pulmonary hemorrhage).  I think there is no doubt that Lasix reduces the severity of bleeding--no one is exactly sure why it does.  The consensus amongst the veterinary community is that all horses experience bleeding, it is just a question of how bad it is.  The bleeding may be so mild, or so deep in the lungs near their diaphragm that in order to find it you need to do a lung wash.
Horsefirst, regarding stifles and sprinters, I don't think I explained it well.  A sprinter "tends" to have a higher stifle when compared to the horses sheath, not the elbow.  And it is all relative because there isn't much difference between a high stifle and one that is more indicative of a distance horse.  You don't want a horse with a higher rear than withers--a big rear, yes, but they need to be balanced.
JAJ 16 Oct 2010 3:59 PM
Well,
Disappointing day for Lentenor.
Out of the gate, he veered slightly to the right, then he straightened out.  He was caught 6-7 wide going into the first turn in 6th place.  Then raced 3 wide down the back stretch in 5th place.  Going into the far turn, Lentenor was caught wide again in 5th place.  Coming for home, he moved up to 4th mid stretch, then had nothing left and faded to 7th place in the field of ten.
Lentenor traveled 27 feet more then the winner, #10 Guy's Reward.  
A disappointing trip and day, hope all came out of the race in good order.
Greg J. 16 Oct 2010 5:20 PM
Ouch. Twice. It wasn't Lael's day. I just hope both came out of these races sound, and that MM finds the formula to unlock the inner champion I think is in there. Both of them got pretty badly crowded out and neither trainer can do much about that. Thanks for the reassurance on the leg bit JAJ.
diastu 16 Oct 2010 5:45 PM
Most of the favs didn't do well.  Interesting race.  What a shame Lentenor had such a crazy trip
MJ 16 Oct 2010 5:47 PM
What an awful ride!!! He had to run wide the entire way, wasting energy running a lot farther than anyone else.
lisa in co 16 Oct 2010 5:47 PM
It was disappointing -he did travel alot more - I'm thinking maybe a jockey error.  Will be interesting to see what MM has to say.
nvsally 16 Oct 2010 5:51 PM
Check the Label is better than that.
MJ 16 Oct 2010 5:52 PM
Cannot believe the poor ride Lentenor got just now.  Was it seven wide in places?  And a lousy break out of the gate, too.  No reason to be that wide when he was in the 11 hole to begin with.  
Terlingua 16 Oct 2010 6:13 PM
why do they have such a hard time
finding jockeys that can do "right"
by these horses...no wonder these
horses are confused... no one seems
to know just how to ride them...find a jockey and then stick
with him... with all the different
riders that nicanor and lentenor
have endured  no wonder they don't
know what is expected of them.,.
nmh 16 Oct 2010 6:18 PM
So is Lentenor...
Cal Gal 16 Oct 2010 6:19 PM
next time let rosie ride both of
the horses.  she seems to know
how to do it
nmh 16 Oct 2010 6:20 PM
I don't know what the jockey could have done differently.  Maybe they expected Lentenor to sprint to the front like his brother.  Could be they wanted to get up further and  then sit until the stretch- but couldn't get the placing they wanted.  We don't know what the jockey was told to do and I don't know if he had dropped him into the back of the field if he could have gotten out in the stretch or has the turn of foot to pull that off.
JAJ, you explained it well enough. In the big view, we're looking for roughly the same thing.  In sport horses, you ideally want the stifle level with the elbow and not higher.  I'm thinking if you look at it your way, and then take a look at the elbow relative to the stifle, the lower stifle will tend to line up with the elbow.  Whatever.  A good engine helps!
Horsefirst 16 Oct 2010 6:22 PM
Here is the link to the replay of Lentenor's race, he is on the far outside post, #11
www.bloodhorse.com/.../race-8
Greg J. 16 Oct 2010 6:26 PM
It's all Matz.
Mr/Mrs. J. get a trainer.
Brut_Al_Fobio 16 Oct 2010 6:30 PM
Brut_Al_Fobio,
Yes, you must be right.  Mr. Matz must have told Robby to take Lentenor seven wide going into the first turn, then told him to travel three wide in the backstretch, then four wide into the final turn.  You are right, it must be the trainer, please.
Greg J. 16 Oct 2010 6:42 PM
Couldn't win today either.  :-(
wendyg 16 Oct 2010 6:42 PM
Everyone needs to be nice.  It could be anything, including the fact that Lentenor and Nicanor are not very good race horses.  I was thinking today how gorgeous lentenor would be in the dressage arena.  There could be many reasons why these horses don't win.  It could just be that the horses are not anywhere near the caliber of Barbaro.    
wendyg 16 Oct 2010 7:02 PM
Sure, throw the jocks under the bus.
If they were to change trainers comments supporting the move would run 90%.
Brut_Al_Fobio 16 Oct 2010 7:07 PM
Lentenor made a right hand turn out of the gate.  It looked like the plan was to go to the front or close to the front out of the gate and into the first turn.  Unfortunately, Lentenor blew the break and got fanned wide through the first part of the turn.  Unfortunately, once you're committed to go, you are stuck if you don't go for whatever reason.
It sure wasn't an inspiring race--he was done at the top of the stretch.
A better break would have put him in a good position going into the first turn and he would have saved a lot of ground.  Lots of the horses in the race had wide trips--he wasn't the only one.
Horsefirst, I just pulled out a conformation shot of my yearling filly taken at 16 months.  She has a lot of body to grow still, but her stifle is definitely higher than her elbow but it looks like a "route" stifle to me.  I also looked at my stakes-winning router and his stifle is definitely higher than his elbow, but he has that "distance" proportioned stifle.  But you're right, we may be arguing the same point.
All kinds of things go into why a horse is better sprinting than routing--even the proportion of fast twitch muscles to slow twitch muscles.
JAJ 16 Oct 2010 7:13 PM
I think Brut Al Fabio is Jon in pseudonym.
But seriously, it is time for a return to John Velasquez!
Cal Gal 16 Oct 2010 7:23 PM
Somebody, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE persuade Michael and the Jacksons to find a consistent jockey for LENTENOR!  Find some one who exercises him, knows him, likes him, and understands how to ride him.  Please see about getting Rosie for the job, or Johny V.  Look at what has worked, and duplicate the pattern. I'm not a trainer, but sheeeeeesh, I do understand simple behavior and mental conditioning. Perhaps horse training IS really that close to rocket science, and so many of us are missing some mysterious and complicated factors.  Perhaps the obvious is too easy a solution (???)... that LENTENOR needs a compatible rider.
Anyway.  I am grateful that it was a safe race for all.
Love the Dear Boy anyway.
Your FOB Fren, O
Otherlyn 16 Oct 2010 7:25 PM
nmh,
A jockey's agent works really hard to put his rider on the horse most likely to win.  He makes his living as a percentage of the jockey's earnings.  They have few loyalties.
Matz is going to try to get the best rider he can.  He will take into consideration the style of riding a jockey is supposedly best at, and try to match it to his horse.  The trainer may try to get a certain rider, but the rider may choose to ride a horse he (or his agent) thinks is more likely to win.  Or, the rider has already promised the race to another horse.  Once he has given the trainer first call, he is committed to ride the horse even if a better one comes along.
These horses are not confused by who is up riding them.  Most horses are pretty straight forward and any decent journeyman jockey could ride them well.  The difference between a really good jockey and an okay jockey is in the decisions they make in the race and how well they prepare before the race by trying to figure out the race and how it will set up.
Today the Nearctic (G1) was won by a shipper from the UK and ridden by Garret Gomez.  Gomez has never ridden the horse until he was legged up this afternoon.  There is a world of difference between how European horses are ridden in a race and North American horses--everything from the having a pony accompanying them to the starting gates and the length of the rider's stirrups.  Gomez was still able to get legged up on this filly and win the race at a track  he only rides at two or three times a year on a very challenging turf course.
Don't put too much weight into the number of different riders these horses have had.
JAJ 16 Oct 2010 7:34 PM
In case I didn't make it clear in my previous post, I'll say it again:
Matz may not be able to get a regular rider even if he wanted one.
Neither of these horses are in the same class as a Quality Road, Blame or a Zenyatta, whose trainers WILL be able to get a jockey to commit to their horse for the year.
This isn't about the jockeys, this is about the horses.
Wide down the backstretch can be also be described as being out of trouble.  A rail skimming ride can get you into traffic.  Didn't this blog criticize one of the riders for getting (was it Lentenor) into a tiny bit of traffic on the rail?  It is not that easy to make these split second decisions at 45 miles and hour.
JAJ 16 Oct 2010 7:43 PM
Hey you know...at least our boy came home safe and sound! Maybe it is just about having or not having heart?
Irene 16 Oct 2010 7:56 PM
BRUT AL
Oh yeah,it's the trainer.....right. Maybe the Jacksons' will hire you. lol
Mike Relva 16 Oct 2010 8:01 PM
GREG J
Thanks for your expert comments and insight.
Mike Relva 16 Oct 2010 8:08 PM
wendy g,
I wouldn't say Nicanor isn't a good race horse.  Now I don't define good = grade I race winners.  This sport needs lots of Nicanor's.
MJ 16 Oct 2010 8:11 PM
I am happy to see that Lentenor made it back to his stall safe and sound. And I am already looking forward to future races for Mr. GQ.
JAJ and Horsefirst or anyone for that matter...is Nicanor a sprinter and Lentenor a distance horse?
And is winning a race as much a mindset for a horse as it is his or her physical ability?
When Secretariat won the Belmont it was as if none of the horses weighed in on his mind whatsoever.
With Zenyatta, it is like she knows she can trounce the field, but wants a challenge and thus waits till the very last to kick into a more serious gear.
Is it an IQ factor?
How much does a jockey's ability factor in?
Does a horse really care who is riding him or her?
I think that is enough questions. Thank you all in advance.
Kathy 16 Oct 2010 8:11 PM
DON'T blame the jockey OR the trainer..........it has been known that some horses aren't very good at the track. Just because our boy is a son of Dynaformer and La Ville Rouge does NOT automatically make him a Triple Crown winner. It really is possible that he just doesn't have that fire in the belly that makes the great ones great. He really didn't appear all that interested today, so let's cut the trainer and jock a little slack here, and let the connections decide what lies ahead. I'd trust all of them to make the very best decision for the horse's future, wouldn't you?
Cheers and safe trips.
needler in Virginia 16 Oct 2010 8:15 PM
Lentenor put put a good effort but he got caught up in the traffic  jam.  He was really trying.  I was praying that both horses the Jacksons were racing today to win.  Nevertheless, I love Barbaro's brothers unconditionally, win or lose.
Chris K 16 Oct 2010 9:07 PM
Thanks Greg fort he update -  watched the race, very disappointing.  I agree with nmh - these guys need a steady rider that knows the horse, not just whoever is available.  You have to have some rapport and bod with the horse.  This ride was awful and one can only wonder what Rosie would've done differently...she seems to be able to bond with her rides.
Pat 16 Oct 2010 9:31 PM
Kathy,
So many questions!
First, I'll start by saying we haven't any idea if Lentenor made it back to his stall safe and sound.  It will take a few days to find out how much the race took out of him and if he is hurt.
I haven't a clue what the preferred distance is for each horse.  The rider and the trainer have a lot more information than I have gotten from 2 minutes of watching him once a month.  My gut feeling is that Nicanor should be shortened up a bit or maybe they need some class relief.  Lentenor has seemed kind of flat in his last two races.
The horse's attitude and confidence makes a big difference in whether he will win.  My trainer believes they sort themselves out as they load.  They--the horses--know who is the class in the field.
Few horses will really dig deep to try to win.  Some have that courage for most races.  Others learn that it isn't such a good idea to lay it on the line every single time.  I think the horses that take care of themselves are the smarter ones.
One reason Secretariat's Belmont was so special (at least to me) was because he ran the race by himself.  It is really hard to keep a horse running really hard without some competition to either run at or to race with.  Secretariat was an amazing horse.
I don't think most horses care who is on their backs as long as the rider gets a long with them.  Racehorses just want to go out and run.
Does a rider's skill make a difference?  It depends.  Riders can really make a mess of a race.  I think bad riding has the biggest effect on a race--it sure has been that way for me.  I've lost a lot more races to bad riding than I have won to good riding.  Most good riding is simply keeping the horse out of trouble.  Some riders can really get a lot out of a horse at the end of the race without resorting to abusive tactics.  I wish I knew more about what makes really good riding.
Needler in Virginia, I disagree with you.  These horses are quite good at the track.  That "fire in the belly" you mention is not limited to the top echelons of racing--it is in many horses right down to the cheap claimers.  The desire to win does not depend on a horse having a lot of ability.
JAJ 16 Oct 2010 9:45 PM
Kathy,
First of all, I won't pretend to know all about racing.  Been around horses all my life but each discipline has its own characteristics.
"is Nicanor a sprinter and Lentenor a distance horse?"
I don't have the answer to that.  We speculate and armchair quarterback on this blog.  Both were bred to blend some speed with distance but it's not always a perfect percentage.
"And is winning a race as much a mindset for a horse as it is his or her physical ability?"
Yes, I think mind set is very important for ANY sport endeavor, not just racing. You can't have a good cutting horse, for example, unless he really cares about controlling that cow.  Some TB's are just not interested in racing and some that are do not have the talent to be top flight.
"When Secretariat won the Belmont it was as if none of the horses weighed in on his mind whatsoever."
Secretariat was an anomoly. He was bred with a cross of speed and stamina/soundness.  But what he did went way beyond that.  Carrying speed as far has he could for as long as he could goes far beyond what most horses can do.
"With Zenyatta, it is like she knows she can trounce the field, but wants a challenge and thus waits till the very last to kick into a more serious gear."
I don't know what Zenyatta thinks but I think she has the will to win.  However, she does not race the way she does for a 'challenge.' That's just her style.  She is a come-from-behind horse vs one that runs on the front.  The unusual thing about Zenyatta is that she's unbeaten with that style.
"Is it an IQ factor?"
No, I don't think so, not for racing, unless a horse has talent and just doesn't 'get' that he's supposed to run faster than the others.  However, I do think some horses can decide if they want to put out that much effort over and over.  I think you can sour a horse real fast by asking too much of them all the time.  But TB's are known for their heart and will to win.
"How much does a jockey's ability factor in?"
I think in ANY horse sport who is on the horses back matters a great deal.  However, the top jockeys in the country don't get there by not having ability. They ride many horses each year.  For example, the race where Seabiscuit beat War Admiral.  A lot was on the line and his regular rider, Pollard, could not ride him.  Woolf stepped in and a different rider did not affect the outcome of that race.
Zenyatta was not always ridden by Mike Smith.  Early on, she got her wins under another rider.
Does a horse really care who is riding him or her?
"IF they know the rider well enough, they might.  But race horses get used to having different riders.  It's not like the other performance sports.  The only one I can think of is the tale of Domino hating his regular rider but that rider really beat on him.  There are several really good grand prix jumping horses who have had success under different riders.  If you saw the ride off in the recent WEG, four of the top riders rode each others horse until they had all ridden the four horses.  Most of the horses went really well but at the end of the competition, some were tiring more than others.  Hickstead still went clear for all four rounds, under four different riders, and earned top spot for the best horse. Some of those horses were not easy rides and had some quirks, yet the riders had enough experience and poise to adjust.
I think IF a horse is ridden a LOT only by a certain rider, it can get attached.  But I don't think that happens in racing.  Too much going on too fast to think about, "Do I like this rider or not?" A good race horse is going to be more focused on his job.  He may argue with the rider about how to do that job but I don't think it's anything personal against a particular rider.  It's not like a complicated three day event course where the horse and rider have to communicate well and trust each other.  When you boil it down, it's pretty much, "Run fast, turn left, run fast, turn left, take a break after the finish line. That's not a place or time to develop a rider specific relationship.
JAJ is right, Matz cannot have just one jockey for these horses.  That's not the way it works and unless the horse is in the very top, the jockey is not going to commit like that.  Some just won't even be at the same track at the same time.
Horsefirst 16 Oct 2010 9:46 PM
You must have forward progress with these horses.  Late into 3, and 4YO seasons, there is none.
I understand the allegance toward their connections.  They're the 'chilean miners' of horse racing.
For you trick or treaters dressing up as a racing 'nor' for Halloween, just hang out at the back of the pack.
There's plenty of candy at home.
Brut_Al_Fobio 16 Oct 2010 10:07 PM
Greg, thank you for the update, glad to see Lennie home safe. The Brothers are very special to us and I look forward to more races and  news on their activities.
Greg, I haven't seen Edgar Prado racing for awhile. He hasn't retired has he? I was just wondering what were his thoughts on the Brothers.
Beautiful pictures, and if Lennie ever needs to take a vacation, he can come to my barn anytime!
sandieh 16 Oct 2010 10:09 PM
Nicanor is not a sprinter.  Secretariat, what can I say, Ron Turcotte, just went along for the ride.  In this race today, Lentenor had a bad trip.  He went 7 wide and simply lost interest.  Horses are not stupid, they know when things are not going well.  Johnny Velasquez was aboard Lentenor when he won his maiden, and again in his next race, an allowance race where he finished 2nd.  Johnny V thought that they had won the race but another horse came up the rail and beat him.  JV and of course Lentenor, didn't see him coming.
MM needs to get on the phone with JV's agent.  
Mary 16 Oct 2010 10:28 PM
Horsefirst, of course, Secretariat was a throw back to his dam's sire, Princequillo.  That's why he was able to win the Belmont by 31 lengths, endurance.  Also look at Secretariat's dam's dam.
Mary 16 Oct 2010 10:32 PM
Thanks Gregg for the link to the replay. Lentenor did not have a good race today. He didn't break from the gate very well at all. I think after that he was forced to the outside, when his jockey realized in the stretch it was over he stood up and made sure Lenny wasn't hurt.
Hopefully his next race will be better from the gate!
We love you anyway, either first or last it doesn't change our feelings for these horses.
Linda/Maryland 16 Oct 2010 10:38 PM
Thanks Gregg for the link to the replay. Lentenor did not have a good race today. He didn't break from the gate very well at all. I think after that he was forced to the outside, when his jockey realized in the stretch it was over he stood up and made sure Lenny wasn't hurt.
Hopefully his next race will be better from the gate!
We love you anyway, either first or last it doesn't change our feelings for these horses.
Linda/Maryland 16 Oct 2010 10:38 PM
Greg....Is there anyway you could find out what might have been said by MM or the jockey.  I know you weren't there but thought you might have a chance of finding out since you work for BH. It would be interesting to know what their thoughts were. Frankly, I believe he got boxed in just like Nicanor did. He had to run for more than most of the horses. I think he got a bad ride. But would really like to know what the jockey thought.  If you can't that's o.k.
Lou in TX 16 Oct 2010 10:46 PM
I just could be that Lentenor is strictly a turf horse and does not like the synthetic track.  Not all horses do.  He has alot of potential.  I too believe he needs a consistant jockey and that may be what Micheal and the Jacksons are trying to find for him.  I'm still proud of him though.  He's not Barbaro but then Barbaro was one of a kind.  Lentenor is a great horse and does his best on the track.  I'm looking forward to seeing Margano.  Nicanor and Lentenor are both winners...in everyway.
Texjoy 16 Oct 2010 10:48 PM
Horsefirst - I know exactly what you're talking about!  Check out Goldikova, not too far removed from a QH.  :)
Letenor's tucked up condition in these pics is a little deceiving, he is not downhill.  
Kat 16 Oct 2010 10:52 PM
O.K.  I've watched the video and reread all the comments several times.  Now let's just agree that we all care about Lentenor very much and we're disappointed he didn't do better, glad that he appears to be safe.  Boy! what a tough day at the office.  I haven't seen the video yet but I understand Check The Label had a hard time too.  However, Harmonious, a daughter of Dynaformer won her race Yay!  I just had to ask some of you who know so much more about these things than I do, whether or not a horse who is on the far outside isn't supposed to make a move toward the inside unless the jockey has been given specific instructions?  Could it be Lentenor was just trying to do what he supposed to and it didn't quite work out.  Also, I could have sworn I saw a bit of a bobble on our boy's part right out of the gate.  It's hard to tell because the video isn't very good at at all.
Anyway, I know we're still not seeing the real Lentenor and his time to shine will come.
Zowie 16 Oct 2010 11:04 PM
I think Lentenor did fine today,he still needs to mature a little bit thats all.I am always happy when he has a safe race.No need to second guess or be hard on him he did the best he could and I love him for that!
Tracy 16 Oct 2010 11:19 PM
JAJ, Zenyatta without Mike Smith would not IMO have won 19 consecutive races; he knows the horse.
Without Ron Turcotte, Secretariat would not have won the Belmont by 31 lengths; he knew the horse and let him go.  I'm not sure that Secretariat would have won the TC without Ron Turcotte.  If you look at his TC races, Secretariat started out as a closer in the Kentucky Derby, and ended up a pace setter in the Belmont.  Most great horses are or were great because the jockeys that rode them knew them.
A horse can win a race with a different jockey, but not consistently.  
Most horses could not possibly win a race going 7 wide, 4 wide throughout an entire race.
Lentenor did very well with Johnny V. aboard.  They were a good fit.  Look at the 2 races where JV was aboard.
The most important human in a great horse's life is the jockey.  Someone he knows, on his back, while he's travelling 40 something miles an hour.
The horse is the engine and the jockey is his pilot.    
Mary 16 Oct 2010 11:41 PM
Mary, I couldn't agree with you more. Greg, Jon slipped through under the guise of "Brut Al Fobio".  Check the email addys.
Brut, you don't own the horse and we don't either.  Lael will decide what and where Lentenor should do and go.  He may be more of an enigma than Nicanor was -- Nicanor is a headstrong, stubborn horse who wants to run a race his way and so far has managed to convince the connections of that.  Lentenor is harder to figure.
Marigold 17 Oct 2010 3:10 AM
Secretariat, and Barbaro were the odd men out in a genetic sense. Both were capable of outrunning the other horses of their generations, and fortunate enough to have trainers and jockeys who facilitated their success and knew how to handle them.  However, Mother Nature craves the average, the median.  There are genes for white dandelions, but the constant crossing to the norm keeps the recessive genes down.  Most TBs are average.  Of the thousands born each year, only a few are good, fewer great.  Nic and Len, although they share the same genes, are more close to the 'normal' or 'average' for the racehorse, and are following the plan of Mother Nature.  Does not detract from their physical appearance, or keep us from appreciating them.  They can't all be Barbaro.
Old Warhorse 17 Oct 2010 5:20 AM
Thanks Horsefirst,
When I watched the video of the race, I noticed that Lentenor was "I believe", stalking the leader towards the end of the race, but started slowing down. And I noticed that the jockey was applying the whip with Lentenor even though it didn't seem to help much. This riding crop issue has been brought up with Nicanor in past races. It almost seemed to me that Lentenor slowed down even more when the jockey used the whip. It certainly didn't speed him up. Was there any need for it during this race?
Kathy 17 Oct 2010 6:15 AM
RUN EM WHERE THEY CAN WIN...ty...
Bellwether 17 Oct 2010 7:09 AM
How does a person know that Lentenor traveled 27 more feet in the race than the winner, #10 Guy's Reward? Was you there with a tape measure?
Barry 17 Oct 2010 7:21 AM
In answer to Barry's comment, it's basic Geometry.  The farther you are out on a turn, the longer the radius of that half circle, thus the longer the horse travels.  And yes, I am a geometry teacher.
All of this shows that its' not just genetics that makes a great racehorse, it's also care and handling, management and luck.  Nicanor and Lentenor are good looking horses, but they are not Barbaro and most likely will not duplicate his success.  And that's OK.  It just underscores how special Barbaro really was.  Can't we be at peace with that?
Breezin' 17 Oct 2010 9:22 AM
Barry,
You mean you didn't see me out on the track measuring Lentenor's path?  Just kidding, actually, Keeneland uses "Trakus" technology, a transmitter is placed under the saddle cloth that measures every stat of the race.
Here are some stats from the race:
Winner traveled 6018 feet, compared to Lentenor's 6046 feet(Second place horse, Palatine Hill traveled 6002 feet).
Lentenor's stats:
Peak speed: 40.1 mph
Feet off rail each POC:
1/4 mile: 18.2 feet(37.6 mph)
1/2 mile: 13.5 feet(38.6 mph)
3/4 mile: 14.2 feet(37.8 mph)
1 mile: 3.7 feet(36.4 mph)
Finish: 12.3 feet(34.1 mph)
Splits for Lentenor at each 1/4 mile and finish:
24.67, 48.42, 1:12.55, 1:37.66, and 1:50.96 final time(compared to 1:48.65 for the winner, Guy's Reward).
Here is a link to the "Trakus" website, click on the video that explains the technology:
http://www.trakus.com/
Here is a link to a video replay of the race with "Trakus", keep your eye on #11(Lentenor) on the bottom:
www.youtube.com/watch
Here is a link to the Keeneland website, click on the date on the left margin(Saturday Oct. 16), then click on race #8 to get all the stats from the race:
ww2.keeneland.com/.../allitemsalt.aspx
Hope that helped?
Greg J. 17 Oct 2010 9:42 AM
Lentenor is a better horse than his record shows and yes, I too would like to see JohnnyV ride Lentenor again.
I would also like to see Rosie ride both brothers again so dont retire them yet....they both have alot of racing left in them providing no injuries surface..
GregJ you have provided great info for us to look at and some of the most beautiful pictures of the Brothers, to me, they are better than Bloodhorse pictures...
gotta love the Brothers!!!
If any of you like dogs be sure and watch for Kachi, a movie about an Akita puppy lost and found..the Hallmark Channel on Dish..a tearjerker,loving story...between a man and his loyal dog..5 star rating...
Hello Sandieh and Lou In Texas, guess UT really threw the bomb at Nebraska last evening ...
Ragsy 17 Oct 2010 11:13 AM
Wake up people. It is not the trainer or the riders of these two horses that happen to be holding them back from blossoming into the two greatest optional-claimers of all time. There are only two possible explanations:
1. LOT. I don't mean there are a lot of reasons, but Lack Of Talent. These future carriage pullers simply do not have the heart, speed or constitution that Barbaro had. They will never develop it.
2. Weight. Never underestimate that the weight of crazy you people heap upon these two horses every single start. Expectations for the little brothers have never been tempered on this board, the few times I check this out, especially after a half-way decent performance, half of this board makes BC reservations. As a matter of fact, I am willing to bet that some of you are stil so delusional that you think they should still be entered into a Breeders' Cup race. What is worse is that you think they would win.
Why not just accept the fact that these two horses are mediocre, at best. And if you love them that much, you should all soon be able to pool your money together and claim them for $25 or $30K, then you can make all of the crazy training and jockey decisions you want.  
The Ace Hare 17 Oct 2010 11:23 AM
It was not the race that we all wanted but that doesn't mean as I stated earlier, they will figure him out, he will win some and lose some and he is not Barbaro, but love him I will.  Still feel that Dynaformer males take longer to mature than the fillies for some odd reason.  As with Nic I think he is a lot better this year with the added age and his front running style once they let him do what he loves and the way he wants to run and hopefully we will see more good things from him as he goes along.  Lentenor at the moment has his problems and once they solve them and he gets a bit more age I feel he will also revolve into a nice racehorse. Love them to death and will follow them always win or lose.
lobieb 17 Oct 2010 12:13 PM
Ragsy...How about those Texas Rangers?
Lentenor did the best he could following Johnny V instructions. I just don't think he understands our boy yet. He needs some time to bond and really know what Lenny can do. They both need a regular rider. That would help any horse not just the brothers. We still love these boys and wish them good health and lots more races.
Lou in TX 17 Oct 2010 12:25 PM
Greg J.
 Thank you very much for that info. Never knew they had that kind of statictics. Learn something new every day.
 Hope the best for the 2 brothers
in their racing future.
Barry 17 Oct 2010 12:35 PM
Barry,
You are quite welcome, like I said, if you click on the link I provided for Keeneland, there are more stats to the race and every other race at Keeneland.
Greg J. 17 Oct 2010 1:21 PM
Once again it must be repeated...Lentenor and Nicanor are NOT Barbaro.  Please leave these horses alone!  They are trying the best they can, but most likely there will not be another Barbaro emerging out of this family.  Maybe they need to enter another arena.  Dressage would be nice, or cross country.  They are beautiful enough to catch a few eyes if they do "dressage."
smartysgal 17 Oct 2010 2:45 PM
Here is an example of horses performing without their regular rider- and in this case, in this venue, those horses and riders work together virtually every day, over years, not just in a race or a breeze like a jockey would:
www.universalsports.com/.../assetid=6febd3c4-77a0-47fd-900e-69820a7c73ac.html
Horse stuff starts 2:54 in, the jump off 5:40 in.
As I mentioned in a previous post, the riders and horses are top notch. The riders may train in the same area.  They certainly compete a lot at the same shows and they may already know some of a horses quirks or how they are like from observation. But- they do not ride another rider's horses in competition  except at a competition like this and this is the only time it happens, at the WEG.  If ever a horse and rider were attached at the hip, this would be one of those times.  Yet, commentary at the beginning aside, what it came down to in this competition seemed to have more to do with the horse- it's stamina and ability to remain focused after jumping the same course 4 times. For example, the competition might have come to a jump off but Lamaze had one of the last goes on the big chestnut horse who was getting tired.  Eric Lamaze and Hicksted were the gold medal winners in the last Olympics. Hicksted won the competition for best horse.
Now, if horses like these can still give their best under different riders than the ones that ride and train them all year, it makes no sense that it always takes a certain jockey to get a race horse to perform.  Some jockey's just happen to get the first couple rides and will ask to keep the ride if they think the horse is good. Most trainers are going to know the horse and tell the jockeys any information they need to know besides race instructions, unless they leave it all up to the jockey. A good jockey is going to be able to figure it out.
I really think that most pairings end up happenstance and that some jockey's, like Johnny V, will be used by some trainers as their main jockey.  I think Pletcher uses Johnny V a lot but he rides other trainer's horse too.
I don't think the key to these brothers has anything to do with the jockey's besides bad racing luck or bad decisions which ALL jockeys make from time to time. And I am of the opinion that the rides Rosie put in on Nicanor only reinforced his idea that he rules the roost.  He may have won and that may have been luck.  Wasn't he allowed to take the lead recently and he still got beat?
Unless these horses start showing something exceptional, they are not going to be horses that jockeys ask to be on.
Mary, Mike Smith is now Zenyatta's regular rider but facts are facts and she won at first without him- and at a time when she probably was more likely to lose because she was green.  I think Smith rides a lot of Sheriff's horses, just like Johnny V rides Pletcher's.
FYI, Man O' War consistently won with different jockey's.  Kummer was his regular rider at three but there were times couldn't ride.  Loftus was his rider at two.  Didn't matter.
Also, Secretariat was not exactly a throwback to Princequillo.  Princequillo gave him the stamina, endurance, stoutness and temperment to use his gift.  He really was an anomoly.  IMHO, he's got a rear end more like Princequillo and he looks more like an ancestor, Discovery than he looks like either Somethingroyal or Bold Ruler. (And really far back, he's eerily like Hamburg)  What is interesting about Secretariat is all the muscling he carried and still he could go a distance.
Horsefirst 17 Oct 2010 3:16 PM
JAJ, you are absolutely right and I said it wrong. There can be fire in the belly of even the lowest level claimer. It just doesn't SEEM to me, during and after yesterday's race that Lentenor cared very much. That could also have a been a side effect of the camera not tracking him very well; my ancient Mac and lack of highspeed 'net doesn't let me watch videos on the computer so I must rely on TVG, HRTV or a great racecaller. My apologies, JAJ, but I still don't think this one will be a bright star.
The one thing everyone seems to forget is that just because Lentenor is a full brother to Barbaro does NOT mean the genes have been reproduced exactly and may NEVER be. A repeat breeding does not mean a carbon copy; it's a different combination of the same genetic maps, so every foal is usually a surprise. The expectations placed on these two brothers is almost unimaginable, so maybe everyone should lighten up a bit, especially since they are NOT the reincarnation of their big brother and may have talents as yet unfound.
Cheers and safe trips.
needler in Virginia 17 Oct 2010 3:25 PM
ACE HARE,
I don't think you will ever see these horses as " claimers." The Jackson's would never do that to them. On this blog are Friends Of Barbaro, who are rooting for Brothers Of Barbaro, no matter what.
These two horses are beautiful and hopefully they will race better, but if not, so be it. We will love them NO LESS!!
Linda/Maryland 17 Oct 2010 5:29 PM
Has everyone lost sight of the fact that this blog is for Tracking Barbaros's brothers?  That is what we are all interested in.  We hope to see the same fire their brother had, but, we are not stupid, all horses are different and what works for one may not work for another.  So, we are just trying to figure out what will work better for these 2, and the general consenus is a regular jockey that has bonded with the horse.  The ride Letenore had, I could've done better and I haven't been on a horse in over 40 years. No one thinks they are the re-incarnation of Barbaro, he was one in a million, but they have the same genes and one can only hope, the same desire.
Pat 17 Oct 2010 5:29 PM
Horsefirst, Secretariat's endurance, stamina IMO came from his broodmare sire, Princequillo.  IMO Secretariat looked nothing like Discovery (the Iron Horse).
Mike Smith has been Zenyatta regular rider for her last 15 wins.  She would not have won the Breeder's Cup without Mike.  If you remember in the Breeder's Cup she broke from the gate on the wrong lead, and Mike had to fight with her a bit to get her on the right lead.  He was worried about her that day, but because they know one another very well, it worked out.
A horse cannot possibly consistently win races with different jockeys every time; I know of no great horse that has ever done that.
I know that JV is a regular rider for Todd Pletcher.  Like I said, Johnny Velasquez was a good fit for Lentenor, and I hope that they will enter him in another race soon, and see if a deal can be worked out with JV.
Mary 17 Oct 2010 5:44 PM
Linda/Maryland,
Why would you think the Jackson's won't run their horses in claiming races?  When horses don't win at allowance levels you either change to a track with easier competition or you drop them in for a tag.
The Jacksons are in this as a business.  They run horses for a tag.  It is part of the game, and it is part of the business.
The question might one day become, do these horses have more residual value as stallion prospects than they are running for in a claiming race.  Personally, I don't think these horses have any value as stallions in today's market.
I don't know if the Jacksons will ever run these horses for a tag, but I wouldn't rule it out.  Neither you nor I know the Jacksons feelings about these horses.  Regardless of how we would like to believe they feel, we really haven't a clue.
There is nothing dishonorable about running horses where they belong, which might very well be for a claiming tag.  Once a horse is out of conditions (maiden, non winners of one, two and three races) it gets almost impossible to find races for them that are not stakes races.  Not every horse is stakes caliber.  Certainly Lentenor hasn't shown me anything to suggest he is going to move up in class.  Some tracks will run an allowance for non winners of a race in a certain time frame, usually the current year, but not often.  More often, they will run that kind of a condition in a claiming race.
Those lower level claiming races can be pretty darn tough at the bigger tracks.  Just recently Woodbourne, a horse that was claimed this summer, ran third in the Grade 1 Woodbine Mile, one of the most important prep races for the Breeders Cup Mile.  That horse wasn't just dropped down for a tag once trying to get an easy race, no, he was regularly run for a tag anywhere from about $30,000 to $50,000.  There are a lot of winners of half a million dollars running very good races for a $5,000 or $10,000 tag.  Don't belittle the claiming ranks.
The really cheap horses will be running in the lower level conditioned claiming races--maidens, non winners of one or two races.  Open claiming, even bottoms, at a good track is really tough.
JAJ 17 Oct 2010 6:09 PM
Pat,
In what way do you think you could have improved on Lentenor's ride?
JAJ 17 Oct 2010 6:11 PM
Personally, I like tracking the boys. But we've been tracking them for some time now on the track and, well . . . I'm no racing expert but I think I know what a race horse ought not to do. Not saying I don't like tracking the brothers but . . . maybe I'd like to track them through their eventing/showjumping/hunter/dressage career.
Racing at this level is just too hard on a horse to keep racing horses that don't seem to have the desire or knack for it.
Ana 17 Oct 2010 6:15 PM
Pat & Linda,
Your last comment's were spot on, I couldn't have said it better myself, Thank You!
JAJ,
While I know it is a business and claiming races are a huge and necessary part of this sport, I can assure you 100 percent that the Jackson's would never put either brother in for a tag, so you can positively "rule it out", trust me on this. Of course they know it is a business, but sometimes you make an exception, placing either one of Barbaro's brothers in a claiming race falls into that category for them.
Whichever decision that is made, for either Nicanor or Lentenor down the road, I have complete faith the Jackson's will only do what is right for their colts.  Losing them for a tag is about the only aspect of this equation I am positive won't ever happen.
Greg J. 17 Oct 2010 7:28 PM
Greg J,
You might very well be right, but it is still hearsay.  Things change.
My real objection to comments about the brothers never running in a claiming race is the way many people feel running for a tag is beneath these horses.  There is nothing dishonorable about running in a claiming race.  If that is the level they belong at, that is where they should run.
It really bugs me when people belittle claiming horses and their connections.  That is where most horses end up, even good stakes horses.  And, contrary to what people on this blog seem to think, most claiming horses are very well taken care of.
JAJ 17 Oct 2010 7:50 PM
Greg,
That is fascinating info about the track technology.  Very helpful info to figure out what went on yesterday.  I never knew about this so thanks for the great piece of racing education.
MJ 17 Oct 2010 7:57 PM
JAJ,
I like your respect of claiming horses.  Way too few in the industry seem to pay attention to them.
I do believe the Jacksons have said they would not put the brothers in a claiming race.  I believe the original plan was to sell either Nicanor or Lentenor as a yearling.  I read some where that the plans changed when Barbaro got hurt.
MJ 17 Oct 2010 8:01 PM
JAJ,
"There is nothing dishonorable about running in a claiming race", "It really bugs me when people belittle claiming horses and their connections"
I agree with you completely, some of my favorite horses that I follow are in claiming races every week.  Absolutely no shame in it at all, and, like you also stated, they are taken care of just as well as a Graded Stakes winner.
  When I say I am positive they will never be entered for a tag, in no way do I mean that in a negative way, just that the Jackson's would retire either brother before it ever came to that.
Greg J. 17 Oct 2010 8:05 PM
JAJ   I think we all get your point about claiming and being tagged. I do think the Jacksons have have a vested interest in these brothers and also an emotional attachment which you may not be realizing. Would you please give it a rest and comment on other things. I respect your opinions but wish you would give us some of your knowledge rather than going on about the same thing. I for one appreciate your knowledge and would rather hear that and maybe learn sonething more about TB's. No disrespect intended.
Lou in TX 17 Oct 2010 8:13 PM
Greg, I agree 100% with you. While breeding and training racehorses is a business that the Jackson family is in, this particular "family" of horses is VERY special to the Jacksons as well as the FOB's. We have followed the Brothers from the time we knew La Ville Rouge was expecting, the birth of these precious babies, watched them go to school, then on to the racetrack. We also followed the Brothers and family and they were sick and crave any news of when they may race again. Barbaro was a big inspiration to me to get up and get going at times when I have not felt well. He still is, because Heaven Bless him, he did not leave us easily. We all know that the Jacksons are aware of the enormous love for these horses by the public. We also know how much Barbaro meant to them. Nicky and Lennie may not BE Barbaro, but they are his true brothers and I just love them, love them, love them.  I have followed Barbaro and his family from the first race at Delaware Park, Oct 4, 2005.
I don't think that it would ever be in the heart of Gretchen Jackson (who has a degree in pastoral care) or Roy Jackson to "sell" any of the Brothers.
With respect to the Jacksons, love and carrots, mints to the Boys. We love you!
sandieh 17 Oct 2010 8:33 PM
JAJ, the Jackson's will never put either brother in a claiming race.  Why in the world would anyone disagree with going back to what worked for Lentenor.  I hope that his connections will do that, go back. As for Nicanor, he has a rider that will probably stay with him, Ramon.
Mary 17 Oct 2010 8:50 PM
Despite the loss, I still love The Brothers for who they are.  They are thoroughbreds bred to run.  Some run faster than others and become champions, and most just continue to run - hoping for a win or at least a decent performance.  Barbaro was a champ, and no doubt would have won the TC.  His brothers, same blood in their veins, are simply not in the same league that Barbaro was.  Do we love them any less?  No Way!!!  To me, they both seem a bit confusing - wonder how MM feels.  Perhaps go back to square one and see what worked best before.  In closing, just hope Lentenor came out sound, for in the end, that's all that matters.
Robin from Maryland 17 Oct 2010 8:52 PM
Lou in Tx, I've always thought to that a horse will bond with his rider. I wonder what the jockeys think about this.
Ragsy, (Greg, we're talking about you) I agree with you to! Greg's pictures are beautiful! How about some of Margano?
Greg, I know that you do not mean that "entering for a tag" in a negative way, I don't think the Jackson's would put a price on something so obviously dear to them. These Boys mean a lot to us.
Thanks again, Greg, for wonderful pictures and updates on Nicky and Lennie, hope to hear some news on LaVille Rouge and Margano soon!
sandieh 17 Oct 2010 9:00 PM
Horses that run in the claiming races are definitely the horses that rule in the thoroughbred racing realm. What I would like to know is how old is too old for thoroughbreds to run in these races. I noticed a horse in a claiming race out on the west coast today that is 11 years old. What is the likelihood that an 11 year old horse is going to win even a claimer?
Inre to the "Brothers", Nicanor has nothing to be ashamed of. And currently, I'd say, he is ready for a Grade III race, not that I have any contact with Mr. M.M. on this subject matter and have no clue as to what race Nicanor is ready for.
I seem to recall, wa-hayyyee back when that Lentenor was highly rated. And then he had his lay-off. And to my knowledge, no one has ever mentioned why Lentenor had a, what was it, a 5 or so month layoff?
Should we worry more about the 11 year old that placed 7th in a 8,000 claiming race on the west coast on Oct 17th or the Barbaro brothers?
I believe that the Jackson will take care of the brothers. I am not so sure about the claimers that grow old in the claiming races across the U.S.  
Kathy 17 Oct 2010 9:36 PM
THE ACE HARE
I seriously doubt you would EVER be claimed! lol Too bad you don't have the brains to figure out how lame that was.
Mike Relva 17 Oct 2010 10:33 PM
BARRY
How do you know he didn't?
Mike Relva 17 Oct 2010 10:36 PM
ty...JAJ...
Bellwether 18 Oct 2010 1:38 AM
Inre to my comment before, Lentenor didn't have too many races under his belt before his 5 month layoff. And he has had only three since his layoff ended. And since no one really knows outside of the Matz barn why Lentenor had that long layoff, people really need to cut Lentenor some slack. I will continue to follow the Barbaro brothers win or lose for as long as they or I am around. Frankly, I look forward to their races each month. This month I am having a little Nicanor withdrawal as he hasn't found a race yet. I still have my hopes up though.
Kathy 18 Oct 2010 4:06 AM
Too bad for lentenor :( butI'll keep loving him and following him!
Do you have any news on Margano? Did he left the farm to start his training?
Katie 18 Oct 2010 10:30 AM
Drop him in a claiming race and see what happens.  If he gets claimed you folks can still follow his career even with new connections.  Run them where they can win.
Trebloc 18 Oct 2010 12:45 PM
Ace Hare, if you think that they are mediocre horses, then why do you bother to read anything on this blog.  It seems to me that you are wasting your time and why you would do that I haven't a clue, except perhaps you simply like to stir up trouble.  Thankfully, I don't have time in my life for such nonsense.
There really is a great opportunity for you to learn a lot here.
By the way, Nicanor's next start will likely be in stake's race, with Ramon aboard hopefully.
Mary 18 Oct 2010 1:25 PM
I was sorry too he didn't win, but for me the biggest thrill was just getting to see him in the flesh, and now I've seen both him and Nicanor race. They are my "sentimental" horses and some of the few that fit in that category regardless of what they've done on the track. I think most people here understand that about them so I don't really need to explain it.
Since I never got to see Barbaro race, this is as close as I'll get and I was glad this time I got to jump at the chance to go see him run.
To me, he looked even more like Barbaro in the face than Nicanor did. That is what really captivated me about him in person.
And it was still a thrill to cheer him on even though he wasn't that much in the mix. I enjoyed his day at the races.
Sarah 18 Oct 2010 1:55 PM
Racing needs fans, and some follow superstars, some follow families, some follow jockey, some follow owners.
A number of folks are intrigued by Barbaro's full siblings.  Lentenor and Nicanor have already beaten the odds to even GET to the races, let alone win, so let's enjoy them.  So they're not as great as Barbaro, they're still "ours".
Man O'War had at least 4 full siblings, 1 sister Masda was good young, and 1 brother My Play who got better as he got older, winning the Jockey Club Gold Cup.
And Secretariat had a full sister, The Bride, whom Penny Chenery once described as not being able to outrun a fat man going downhill!
Genes are impossible to predict, but that doesn't make it less fun to try!
slee 18 Oct 2010 2:02 PM
Mike Relva,
 I don't understand your question.
How didn't I know he didn't what?
Barry 18 Oct 2010 2:34 PM
Ace Hare
Love has no boundaries when it comes to the brothers of BARBARO!!!I loved Barbaro and got to see him race in Florida, you can bet your sweet a--, I love these brothers but if people think because of that love, I cant see the difference between Barbaro, Nicanor,Lentenor and Margano, then that person must be exhibiting delusional thinking....
GregJ, your so right,I don't believe the Jacksons would ever put these Brothers in a claiming race for a tag, they have more compassion and love in their hearts than that....
Ragsy 18 Oct 2010 4:43 PM
Hey Lou In Texas
It wasnt the Texas Rangers I was mentioning, It was the University Of Texas and their win over Nebraska University, oops, thats ok too....
love college football and the Brothers Of Barbaro, wonder when folks will see the light?
Ragsy 18 Oct 2010 4:50 PM
Ragsy,
Love in their hearts?  Compassion?
What are you saying about owners and trainers of claiming horses?
I think comments like that are out of line.
JAJ 18 Oct 2010 5:54 PM
Mary,
I still believe that its happenstance when a jockey and horse, to all appearances, team up.  If they think the horse is going to get them recognition and money, they are going to try and stay on that horse. If the horse happens to be with a trainer who tends to use a certain jockey and the horse does well, that's happenstance.
Man O' War won with the following jockeys:
Loftus
Sande
Schuttinger
Kummer
The brothers have had some very good jockeys.  These guys are capable and I'd just love to hear the feed back they give Matz.
If a horse was really going to bond with the person who rides him more than a jockey, it would be the regular exercise rider.
You know, you and I are on the same page about Princequillo.  If you didn't catch it, True Nicks on Bloodhorse did a piece on this remarkable stallion. Go there and keep going back and you'll find the piece they did on him.
Secretariat was a match of speed over stamina.
Barbaro was a match of stamina over speed, basically.
Now, for something I said was eerily similar, look at Hamburg and read his story.  Look and sound a lot like someone we know? Hamburg was stamina over speed:
www.tbheritage.com/.../Hamburg.html
For everyone else, spending time on the Portraits page of the above site can teach you a lot about the history of the horses we love.
Horsefirst 18 Oct 2010 5:56 PM
You can follow this for some of the horses in the background of the brothers:
www.pedigreequery.com/nicanor4
(Warning-pedigreequery sometimes has mistakes but I think this pedigree is correct- and you get other stuff on this site)
Now, you can click on each horse and read the pedigree of that ancestor.
For fun, go to the top left and click on "Reports."
That will give you a menu. Click on "photos."
You can see pictures, if available, of the horses in Nicanor's (Brothers) pedigree.  Mostly stallions but sometimes the mares.
Horsefirst 18 Oct 2010 6:08 PM
Trebloc, that is not going to happen.  The Jacksons' would never even think of putting a tag on Lentenor.  Lets move on.  If you can tell me something I don't already know, that would be great.  Have a nice evening everyone.
Mary 18 Oct 2010 6:26 PM
TREBLOC
You really think they will go to claiming races? No way,they won't ever do that!
Mike Relva 18 Oct 2010 6:36 PM
BARRY
How do you know he didn't travel 27 feet more? Can you say he didn't?
Mike Relva 18 Oct 2010 6:38 PM
Although I have followed Barbaro and the brothers from the beginning and have read this blog faithfully for quite some time, I have never been brave enough to comment until now. After almost 150 comments on Lentenor's latest race, no one has mentioned his loading. It seemed to me that as the last to load, he went in the back gate and was no sooner in than the front gate opened. As we know he bobbled as he left the gate which didn't help his trip any. Why wasn't he given a few seconds to settle, get his head together and, for that matter, for the jockey to get him set? As far as this blog goes, I love it and certainly have learned alot from the contributors. Barbaro and his brothers and all of the FOB's have made me a race fan and I appreciate the Jacksons and their love for their horses. Remember - any horse on any given day at any track can win. I've see quite a few long shots cross the line first. Thanks for listening and please be gentle - it's my first time.
Patty in PA 18 Oct 2010 7:13 PM
Patty- Welcome
The starter has to open the gates at the time it looks like horses are relatively straight and ready to go.  Waiting usually only makes someone start acting up.  It may have not been the best for Lentenor but for the whole group, it may have been the best time. Had he waited for Lentenor, someone else who had been in longer may have begun acting up, then another....
I think most people on this blog will be following the brother's well into whatever is next for them down the road although I don't think they are done at the track for some time to come.
Horsefirst 18 Oct 2010 7:44 PM
Patty,
Welcome!  Thanks for the comment and kind words, don't be a stranger :)
Regarding the break for Lentenor.  Being the last to load, one needs to remember, the other nine in the field have been waiting and the starter will open the gate the moment the last horse loads, if he feels they are all ready to go.  If you look closely, Lentenor loaded fine, looked to the left, then forward and the gate opened. I really didn't find any fault at all, just that Lentenor veered slighly to the right, which caused Robby to lose his balance a little, as he was to the left and on the neck a little.  In the grand scheme of the race, it might have caused Lentenor to lose a length, which could have made the difference of him clearing the field going into the first turn?  One will never know.
Replay:
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/race/USA/KEE/2010/10/16/8/race-8
Greg J. 18 Oct 2010 8:02 PM
To answer the question regarding age; I was at Hawthorne on Saturday and a Brazillian bred roan named O'Connell's won the fourth race, 10k claimer @ 8.5f on the dirt.  Won driving by 2 lengths, much the best, he was foaled in 2001.  Unfortunately, there were 2 consecutive fatal breakdowns in the third and fourth races, where horses were put down on the track.  The Hawthorne fall meet is the epitomy of why without drastic measures of amendment, this industry is doomed.  A sparse crowd a habitual gamblers, providing a handle that is dwarfed by the online contributions; commercial sponsors see little to no opportunities-same old, same old.  If you know ANYTHING about the economic hurdles facing racing, today- you wouldn't be insulting casual fans brought to the industry by Barbaro and his brothers; you would be trying to find the next medium to attract more casual fans, not insulting their perspective of these colts' talent, whatever it may be.  Casual fans buy products, represent marketting opportunities that gambling doesn't.  The casual fan also generally will play a few races and has more money than the habituals (guess why).   We can't even get local sponsors to consider Arlington in the summer, let alone Hawthorne.  As far as claiming is concerned-we tried to get a claim in on the eventual winner of the 9th race Saturday, a fabulous looking two year old grandson of Storm Cat, out of a Kris S mare, who was in for 25k.  I had a chance to speak with Chris Block, the trainer, and unfortunately they're going to go the Allowance NW2 route next start. If it weren't for claiming, most owner's and horsemen, would not be able to participate.
brettzky99 18 Oct 2010 8:16 PM
Thank you so much Horsefirst, I will go to True Nicks on Bloodhorse.  I did a little research last night on Hamburg, great stallion.
Mary 18 Oct 2010 8:47 PM
Patty in PA welcome to the blog. As you can probably tell most people on this site love the whole Barabro family. That includes the little Babynor that La Ville R is carrying, as far as we know. Please post anytime you like. All knowledge and feelings about this family are always welcome here. Sometime we get off on another horse like Zenyatta so don't be afraid to comment on other horses that you follow. Someone will always have some comment to make. You may need to be thick skinnned sometimes for some of us do get a little nasty sometimes. We usually try to stay away from those though.  I think you can learn alot from some of the more knowledgeable bloggers on here. It'a always fun to learn new things. Don't be a stranger anymore.
Lou in TX 18 Oct 2010 9:18 PM
Look, the jockey is not the issue. As a matter of fact, I thought it was a pretty good ride all things considered. After the first turn, Robby was able to get cover going 3 wide. Meaning he was able to draft in behind the leaders. With synthetic surfaces, you have to ride like you're in a turf race. He also made a nice move around the turn to slip inside a horse that was drifting out to save as much ground as he could.
As for the whole Johnny V thing, for one he rides 1st call for Pletcher, or unless he can find a better mount. By looking at Lentenor's form on paper, you would think Angel Cordero would find something better to ride unless Lentenor looks way superior on paper compared to the rest of the field he's entered against. The only way that's going to happen is if they catch a very week conditioned allowance field. Finally, Michael Matz isn't based in NY. That's where Johnny V is based. So chances are much slimmer there. And the Jackson's are not going to go out of there way to contract Johnny V to ride Lentenor for the rest of his life. Johnny V wouldn't accept it anyway just b/c he's the brother of Barbaro.
Let's stop using the jock or the trainer as a scape goat for all of Lentenor's poor performances. Like Frank Brother's said, "Mrs Mays had 9 children, but there was only one Willie."
The Rock 18 Oct 2010 9:29 PM
Horsefirst, I went to True Nicks and read the article about Princequillo and your response.  You are so right, there would have been no Secretariat without the Princequillo mare, Somethingroyal.  You might disagree, but I never thought that Bold Ruler had a whole lot to do with Secretariat's greatness.  The Nasrullah line had problems.
If you look at La Ville Rouge's pedigree, on her dam's side you will find Plucky Leige, the great producer, as well as the great Princequillo.  Dynaformer didn't have a whole lot to do with Barbaro's greatness, that came from his dam, LaVille Rouge, through her dam La Reine Rouge.
Mary 18 Oct 2010 9:36 PM
Patty,
Being last to load is an advantage.  As Greg J said, the other horses have had to wait.
JAJ 18 Oct 2010 9:39 PM
Mary,
Love your enthusiasm for Princequillo but we will have to agree to disagree.  Princequillo was a great stayer.  Secretariat could win over all distances so yes, his sire line did play a part in imparting speed.  When I say he was an anomoly, I mean it is VERY rare to find a horse who could both stay and carry speed over a long distance.  It's kind of like finding just the right mix- except with genes, you can only hope for the right mix!  Or, look at it this way, Princequillo provided the base, the cake, and Bold Ruler provided the icing, the speed.
Hey JAJ, could you elaborate a little on the turf/synthetic race vs. dirt?  (Regarding your comment above about the race)
Horsefirst 18 Oct 2010 10:00 PM
Thank you brettzky99 for your insight. I had a chance a couple of weeks back to see Zenyatta race at Hollywood Park. There were 25,837 fans, some probably habitual, in attendance. Most were not there for the entire day. Having a horse that is a star can be very intrusive to owner and trainer, but just like movie stars, horse stars who win races and have pictures taken bring people to the track. If more horse superstars visited the Tonight Show or Letterman, the horse racing industry would be doing a lot better. How often do you see Lookin at Lucky or Blind Luck on network television. It just doesn't happen. Promote the superstars, find suitable solutions for racehorses that are past their prime and find ways to minimize the breakdowns and the racing industry will flourish.
The horse racing industry does not promote their industry as they should. The industry really doesn't want the casual horse racing fan to be thinking as they are cashing in that win ticket where that horse that won them money will be 10 years from now. This is probably the reason why
those turkeys that are given last minute reprieves by the President during the Thanksgiving holiday or those furry friends in movies are placed on farms till they die. No one really wants to be reminded that their fortune involved an animal that is no longer living due to a lack of concern on the owner's part.
I remember watching National Velvet with my very young nieces at the time and having to explain to them that the horses splashing and sputtering in the water during the race just prior to a jump were okay cuz it was just a movie. I don't think the horses were okay, but I didn't want my nieces to have nightmares.
Find solutions for the horses that don't have the Jackson's et al. to watch out for them, and the race horse industry will survive, plain and simple.
Kathy 18 Oct 2010 10:06 PM
HorseFirst, I think it was Rock who made the comment on synthetic surfaces.  I'm not sure I agree with him--the jury is still out on how synthetics play.  Plus each synthetic surface plays differently, and will play differently depending on the time of the day and even from day to day.
The one thing about synthetics is that there is no slide to the surface.  When a horse hits a traditional dirt or turf surface, their foot slides.  Not so with a synthetic surface.
I race at a synthetic track and races are won on the front end and by closers.  I wouldn't say that they are ridden like a turf race.  To me, a turf race tends to have slightly slower early fractions with what often looks like a blanket finish at the end.  Turf races tend to have more thrilling finishes.  I don't see that in the synthetic track I race at.
I agree with The Rock that the ride wasn't that bad.  He ended up where he didn't want to be and then made the most of a bad situation.  He was 7 wide only through the first part of the turn.  Lentenor didn't have a great trip, but I can't blame the jockey for it.  Maybe the jockey should have cleared the field on the first turn but he would have used up a lot of the horse to do it.  If he'd lost using that strategy, we would have been complaining that used the horse early and left nothing for the stretch.  He made a decision--we really can't know what would have happened if he had ridden differently.  Lentenor hasn't been finishing his races, so his decision to not use the horse early might have been the right one.
JAJ 18 Oct 2010 10:48 PM
Kathy,
You are absolutely right.  The way racing is presented and percieved is not markettable, and has little growth potential.  There are many reasons ranging from overbreeding to current profit models that have led to this state.  The disposition of horses is a big factor.  The polar opposite of the norm ocurred after Barbaro's breakdown, and it brought a new fan base.  In fairness, most connections don't have nearly the financial resources or capicity that Barbaro's owners do; however a couple of things are clear:  If horse racing can't deal with the perception of what occurs with treatment of less than stellar horses, and horse racing can't diversify business models from being weighted almost exclusively toward gambling, then the industry will remain saddled (no pun) with bankruptcies, and insolvency.
brettzky99 18 Oct 2010 11:03 PM
Mike Relva,
 Get with the program. I never said he didn"t travel 27 feet more.
I was asking Greg how he knew. Then Greg gave me a very good answer. Go back to 17 Oct. 7:21, and 9:42 AM. Also 12:35 and 1:21 PM. Re-read these post and you might understand.
 Mind your own business, I wasn"t talking to you.
Barry 18 Oct 2010 11:22 PM
Horsefirst, we can agree to disagree.  I'vebeen through this before, the X chromosone carries much more genetic material than the Y chromosone.  The Y chromosone carries the sex of the offspring and some physical traits.
Scientifically, this is a fact.
If the mare is carrying a filly, the story changes.
Mary 18 Oct 2010 11:33 PM
If you can, obtain a  back copy of the November 24, 2007/no.7 issue of The Blood-Horse magazine, entitled "Matings That Work". Thoroughbred breeders, owners and pedigree analysts were asked for examples of matings that worked and why. Here is Avalyn Hunter's analysis: "One of my favorite crosses is Roberto over Mr. Prospector - not necessarily as a sire/broodmare nick, but just the presence of Roberto in the sire's half of the pedigree and Mr Prospector on the dams side". She goes on to say that at that time, there were over 20 grade/group1 stakes winners worldwide. Avalyn said that according to Michael Ventura, of Ventura Geoscore, a statistical look at results verses opportunites for various bloodline crosses worldwide, the Roberto/Mr Prospector cross was yielding graded stakes winners at a rate better than 50% in excess of what would be expected by chance. Biomechanical similarities not withstanding, her feeling was that from a pedigree standpoint, the driving force is the similarity between Bramalea, dam of Roberto and Gold Digger, dam of Mr Prospector. Both daughters of Nashua, they also share similarities on the distaff side of their pedigrees: Bramalea's dam, Rarelea, is by Bull Lea out of a Blue Larkspur mare, while Gold Digger's granddam, Miss Dogwood, is by Bull Lea's sire Bull Dog out of a Blue Larkspur mare.  She goes on to say, "Historically, stallions whose back-grounds share considerable genetic over-lap, particulary on the dam's side of the pedigree, often show affinities when their bloodlines are crossed: War Admiral and Eight Thirty, Blue Larkspur and Relic, and the trio of Nasrullah, Mahmoud, and Royal Charger are examples.
The article starts by saying nothing succeeds like success and I think Avalyn made her point.On another note, there was an interesting comment by Rob Keck, pedigree analyst about close in-breeding. "There is a misperception that close in-breeding "creates" defects, when in fact inbreeding merely increases the probability of producing a foal with increased homozygosity (both alleles are the same) for all traits of the admired individual both good and bad. Both defects and desired traits are likely to be expressed, which is why it is imperative to have intimate knowledge about the admired ancestor in which the inbreeding is directed".
Maybe this will enlighten those that question why the Jacksons keep going back to Dynaformer and put the pedigree emphases where it belongs on the staminia over speed issue for the Barbaro brothers. For those that don't know who Avalyn Hunter is, she is a regular contributor to the Blood Horse magazine.      
Dona 19 Oct 2010 5:46 AM
Mary wrote:
"Horsefirst, we can agree to disagree.  I've been through this before, the X chromosone carries much more genetic material than the Y chromosone.  The Y chromosone carries the sex of the offspring and some physical traits.
Scientifically, this is a fact."
What is your point?  That is true of humans, too.  By the way, chromosome is spelled with an M.
JAJ 19 Oct 2010 8:36 AM
Horsefirst, you are right, Secretariat got the speed from the Nasrullah line and the endurance, stamina from his broodmare sire.
Dona, you have to go with what works, and it did with Barbaro, so I can't imagine the Jacksons' mating La Ville Rouge with any other stallion other than Dynaformer.  
Mary 19 Oct 2010 8:57 AM
JAJ...don't you make mistakes in your spelling once in a while.  Give us a break.  You're being too judgemental. Now maybe I didn't spell something right but that doesn't have to be a big deal!!! No one seems to care but you!!!
Lou in TX 19 Oct 2010 10:44 AM
Having read all of the posts from the beginning again, I have a lot of opinions, lol, first of all, the break, That little right turn Lentenor made killed any chance he had to get to the front and as a result was carried far wider then where he should have been. Was it Robby's fault? I don't think so. As someone else stated, he lost his balance and he had to recover as well as the horse. Not an auspicious beginning. When Lentenor was not able to improve his position (closer to the rail) around the second turn, I think I knew in my heart it was pretty much over for him at that point. Disapointed, sure, all of us who have a special place in our hearts for this family of horses, were. But, I for one have not lost faith in either of the brothers.
Second, Claiming races. I have no disrespect for horse racing at the lower levels, and for the most part, they are treated as well as stakes caliber horses are. They provide the majority of races on the majority of cards. They provide the entertainment in the industry going on a daily basis and should get a lot more respect then they do. However, I do not for one minute believe the Jacksons would ever enter these horses in claiming races. They have a strong emotional attachment to these animals. Perhaps their performaces on the track to date have not been stellar, but if they remain healthy who's to say they won't excell as they age into their 4 and 5 yr old season, respectively.
Third, Stallion Prospects. Some of the most sucessful stallions in history have had less the optimal racing careers. Sometimes what makes a good sire, is not the career. It's the carrying on of the bloodline. No one can argue that these boys have great breeding. I am sure the Jackson's will do everything in their power to encourage other breeder's to send their mares to either of these son's of Dynaformer. Of which there are very few at stud, Purim being the most prominent.
Regarding Margano, I'm not certain (Greg feel free to correct me if I am wrong) but I am pretty sure that he is in Florida at Stevens Thoroughbred's for training and will be shipped north to Far Hill around April.
I would like to touch on the comments of those who think that We as a group are somehow blind to the fact that Nicanor and Lentenor are not Barbaro, DUH ! You must think you are incredibly brilliant and the rest of us are seriously stupid. Realistically, I think we all know these two brother's are at best allowance or lower level stakes horses, but that does not give you the right to insult ANY of us. As many have pointed out, It is very rare for full siblings to be successful at the the highest levels of racing. But, Look at Hasili, She produced 5 foals by Danehill, 4 of which are millionaires (two ,twice over). The only one of those 5 foals who didn't reach Millionaire status was Dansili, who is having a pretty good career as a stallion.
His daughter Proviso is proving to be a turf powerhouse. I realize this is an exceltional body of work, so to speak for a mare, but it makes my point, successful full siblings do happen.
Lastly, someone asked if La Ville Rouge was in foal. On the Three Chimneys header on the Bloodhorse home page, the Dynaformer ad is stating he had gotten 70% of his book in foal this year including La Ville Rouge and Pussycat Doll (also owned by the Jacksons)
Criminal Type 19 Oct 2010 11:26 AM
Dona, Thank you so much for that post, It was enlightening. I think the Jackson's will continue to breed LVR to Dynaformer until he is pensioned. Then, I would love to see The Jacksons send her to Rock Hard Ten (A++)or Street Cry (A+)
Criminal Type 19 Oct 2010 11:39 AM
Thanks JAJ, for your response to the track question, sorry if I got you mixed up with someone else.
Criminal Type, excellent post.  I think people on this blog have become quite realistic about the brothers but that does not diminish enthusiasm.
I also believe people on this blog are learning quite a lot, from pedigrees to race tactics.  Look at how people are analyzing the races. (Including myself)
It is quite refreshing to see this amount of interest in an equine family.
You are right about the question of whether the brothers might make good stallions.  In the past, I think it might have been easier, back when owners also owned the farms and raced their own stock and would take the chance to bring back one of their own and give them an opportunity.  In this day and age, I don't know.  
Horsefirst 19 Oct 2010 12:08 PM
Criminal Type....loved your post. You said it all!!! Thank you.
Lou in TX 19 Oct 2010 1:14 PM
We know only too well what happens to horses that have owners that are without compassion or love in their hearts!! Just look at Earnie Paragallio, and the horses that wind up in slaughter houses from compassionate,loving owners...
Lou In Texas, you are so right.
Ragsy 19 Oct 2010 1:24 PM
The disrespect shown here by certain individuals, for us, the connections, and most of all, for the horses, who cannot help that they are Barbaro's brothers, is what saddens and angers me the most.  You are entitled to your opinions, but certain ones of you go out of your way to be offensive about it.  To what end, I do not know nor care to.  Please go elsewhere.  We really do not care to know your opinions.  Perhaps you should start your own Blog about the brothers of Barbaro and their connections, where you can knock yourselves out with your negativity and try to one-up one another with who can be the cleverest.  That way, you can have your fun, and we don't have to see or hear it. Please..
Marigold 19 Oct 2010 2:47 PM
Mary, you're entitled to your opinion but making statements like "Dynaformer didn't have a lot to do with Barbaro's greatness" is outrageous. Sometimes you sound like you know what you're talking about and them WHAM, you make statements like that. Maybe you should reread your blog and weight your statements more carefully  before hitting the submit command. Let's try to be a lot more knowledgable and sensetive in the statements that are sent out.
Voyager 19 Oct 2010 3:00 PM
Thanks Criminal Type for your nice comment. Did you know Holy Ground, 1/2 brother to the Barbaro brothers sired a winner this past week-end. He also has a yearling filly named "Grace". I am most anxious to see what the PussyCat Doll and Dynaformer mating produces. Should be an interesting foal.
Dona 19 Oct 2010 3:21 PM
Criminal Type that was a great comment...thanks..I agree with Lou...
I wanted to include owner/trainer's in that category above, since we know that people missing love and compassion in their hearts is what powered Earnie Paragalio to commit atrocious acts against his horses, as well as, Heavenly Perfect whose owner/trainer was totally inhumane, go ahead and look her up and see the lack of love and compassion for his horse...and horses that are sent to slaughter by people lacking love and compassion..I shudder when I think of the owner/trainers and numbers of horses lost because of these people...but some rules are changing thankfully.
Also, Madeleine Pickens and her backers for the Wild Horse Sanctuary must be commended for what they have accomplished.
Madeleine P. stated, no horse would be denied a safe haven once it is operational..God Bless Her! Seems she has love and compassion in her heart...
Ragsy 19 Oct 2010 3:35 PM
See what I mean, I didn't catch the wrong spelling on sensitive. It happens.    
Voyager 19 Oct 2010 4:03 PM
Ragsy, do you remember what happened to Kentucky Derby winner Ferdinand? He was sent to a slaughter house.That will hurt a heart just thinking about it.
It does seem though that now owners take better care of their horses, however, there is so much abuse still out there.
It so so interesting and educational to read everyone's opinion, I am thankful for the opportunity that Bloodhorse and Greg have given us.
sandieh 19 Oct 2010 4:34 PM
Dona, great for Holy Ground, first son of LaVille Rouge! Graced with Power was recently for sale, she should be about 2 now, but I heard the owners decided not to sell, not sure. All of LaVille Rouge's sons, including Man in Havana are beautiful horses!  
sandieh 19 Oct 2010 4:42 PM
Ace Hare and certain others of you (and you know who you are):
We fans are not the ones making the comparisons of Nic and Len to Barbaro -- YOU are!  We just love them and enjoy them -- you are the ones constantly pointing out that they will never be as good as Barbaro.  SO, it's YOUR,
issue -- not ours.  Just take it somewhere else, please.
Cal Gal 19 Oct 2010 5:10 PM
Criminal Type,  you're right on with your comment.  Lentenor did lose ground going wide out of the starting gate.  Had he been positioned in the middle I think he would have won.  We all love these horses but at the same time we have realistic expectations. They are not Barbaro but at the same time I'm very optomistic and want them to win when they race.  Win or lose I still love them.
Chris K 19 Oct 2010 5:41 PM
I want to wish Lentenor and Nicanor the best of luck in the racing career. The fact that they are Barbaro's brothers means they have Barbaro's spirit in them! Lentenor and Nicanor are gorgeous horses. I am a huge horse lover and Michael Matz is a fantastic trainer. Good luck to Michael, Lentenor and Nicanor. Thanks, Terry Lance, Hanover, CT.
TERRY LANCE 19 Oct 2010 5:47 PM
Voyager, you are right, so sorry about that; hate to lose credibility.  In Barbaro's case, I simply got carried away with looking at La Ville Rouge and her wonderful pedigree.  When looking at a colt's pedigree, I tend to look more closely at the tail side.  Of course, Dynaformer contributed to Barbaro's greatness.  I just believe that La Ville Rouge contributed more.
I'll try not to get carried away in the future.
By the way, looking at a filly's pedigree is a whole different ballgame.    
Mary 19 Oct 2010 6:21 PM
Okay, JAJ, sorry for the mistake.  It is chromosone.  We all make typos, including you.  Move on.
Mary 19 Oct 2010 6:27 PM
Nicanor, this beautiful headstrong horse, loves to run on the lead, but something that I learned about him from his last race, is that he actually dropped into another gear near the end of the race, the last 1/2 furlong in 6 seconds and a little change.  Pretty quick.
I have watched all of Lentenor's races many times, and I realize that since the Florida Derby, something is not right with him, but it's likely a confidence problem.  The solution, go back to what worked in the beginning.
Mary 19 Oct 2010 7:21 PM
Mary,
Too funny, you still didn't get it right--it is chromosome, with an M.  I hope you can say nuclear and not nucular.  Me, I can no longer actually say the word in a conversation without stopping and working it out.
JAJ 19 Oct 2010 7:34 PM
Sandieh,
Like many horse lovers, I am horrified at what happened to Ferdinand.  Sadly, it is a "normal" fate for horses in Japan, even treasured stallions once they are retired.  I worry about many of the wonderful breeding stock that has been shipped to Japan recently.  Horses like Silver Charm, standing in Japan, have an agreement that they come back to the US at the end of their breeding careers.
But, Japan and their practices are not North American practices.  Yes, there are some pretty bad owners and trainers of Thoroughbreds in North America; but we must not forget that there are some pretty bad owners, trainers and breeders of horses (dogs, cows, kittens) other than Thoroughbreds.
There is a lot being done towards making lives better for retiring Thoroughbreds.  It is a big problem that the industry is tackling.  Will we be able to come up with a solution that satisfies every horse lover?  Not likely, but at least it is seen as a serious problem by the industry.  Things are happening.
JAJ 19 Oct 2010 8:30 PM
Sandieh, Grace was foaled 2/7/9 and yes I believe they are keeping her to race. This is a  nice farm operation, small and diverse. They have show horses as well as thoroughbreds. As a matter of fact, they had a Showing Up filly foaled in 2/10/10 by the 16h mare Synfull Charmer, her self a winner at the track. The filly's name is "Showing Off". Don't you love it! After Barbaro was injured, I watched Showing Up a great deal and it helped. I can't wait to see how his progeny are at the track. Does anyone know if the Jacksons have a Showing Up foal this year?
Dona 19 Oct 2010 8:37 PM
Good grief, talk about real time! I just turned on the local news and they said the Horse Plus Humane Society just rescued 19 horses from Mexico that were slated for slaughter. One is a mare in foal and another has a broken leg. Thank goodness they were saved. I will contact the loca vets tomorrow and contribute to their care, then try and contact friends to see if some can help in the adoptions when the horses are deemed ready. I know it happens all the time but to be reading comments here and then hear it at home is humbling and heart breaking.  
Dona 19 Oct 2010 8:57 PM
Dona,
I checked the web site for Horse Plus Humane Society and was relieved to find no Thoroughbreds listed in their 17 horses available for adoption.  (One was a listed as a Thoroughbred on the main page, but if you clicked on his picture he was classed as a Thoroughbred mix.)
I was very relieved.
I would have been really upset if many of the horses were TBs.  I'm not suggesting that Quarterhorses, Arabs and grade horses don't have as much of a right to a good home as a Thoroughbred, but I believe that on a percentage basis, Thoroughbreds have a better time of it than other breeds.  I think the statistics will bear that out.  I desperately want to believe that we, Thoroughbred horsemen/women, are taking care of our own.  I was just so glad that the site wasn't full of rescue Thoroughbreds.  The stats that Thoroughbreds don't over flow the rescues won't be any comfort to the "Ferdinands" of the world who end up shipped to Mexico or Canada for slaughter though.
The whole unwanted horse problem is very distressing.  It is something I worry about for my own horses that I have sold or given away to good forever homes.  Nothing is forever.
There was a terrible incident in Canada at Fort Erie racetrack last year.  A well-known groom (she had won awards for being the top groom) took many, many horses from trainers, telling them that she had found good homes for these horses.  The reality was that she was selling them for slaughter.  Longrun stepped in and rescued the horses and tried to get as many back to their original owners/trainers as possible, but there were a lot of horses involved and of course, many had already been slaughtered.
That sort of thing just horrifies us horsemen and women.  Here people were believing they were sending their horses off to a good life and they were in fact sent to slaughter.
JAJ 19 Oct 2010 10:32 PM
Okay JAJ, good night.  You are actually trying to bully me.
Mary 19 Oct 2010 10:54 PM
JAJ
I have no idea if any of the horse that came in were thoroughbreds. I believe they said one was an Arabian, one was a mule and three had to be put down because of their condition. Since they just came in yesterday, I don't believe any of them are available yet. Those that are available for adoption were probably there before this group came in. They've done an excellent job getting the media involved and hopefully these poor horses will live out their lives safely. I'm against slaughter, no matter what breed and no it's not true the Thoroughbred Industry does a good job with unwanted horses. There's a site in Woodward Calif. that regularily gets thorougbreds. Central and Northern California seems to be a holding place for horses headed to Canada. Especially between Marysville and Rockland. My cousin has emailed me many times that a Ranch in that area all of a sudden would have 100-200 horses in pastures along the Freeway she drives and then overnight they're gone.  I'm in the Chico area and this is the first I had heard of slaughter saves in this locality. Most of the horses seemed to be just dumped or saved from their owners. At any rate, it's sickening. I don't understand why we can't have a no slaughter law on the federal level.  
Dona 20 Oct 2010 1:25 AM
"I'vebeen through this before, the X chromosone carries much more genetic material than the Y chromosone.  The Y chromosone carries the sex of the offspring and some physical traits.
Scientifically, this is a fact."
Um...what?!
I majored in Animal Science in college, and I'm trying to get accepted into graduate school right now to study reproductive physiology. I'm pretty positive that both sets of chromosomes contain the same amount of genetic information, regardless of whether they're an X or a Y. A Y chromosome determines the sex of the offspring to be male - if the stallion contributes a X chromosome to the ovum, the offspring is female. Otherwise, they both contain the same amount of genetic information, and both will influence the traits of the resulting foal. This is why we breed excellent horses to each other, instead of breeding excellent horses to crappy horses and hoping it works. When you're breeding horses, you breed the best to the best and hope the offspring has the best traits of both parents. Sometimes, the horse gets the worst traits of both parents - ever hear of The Bride? A 1969 Bold Ruler x Somethingroyal mare? Full sister to the greatest racehorse in history and she couldn't run a lick. Another example seems to be Take Control, the 2007 A.P. Indy x Azeri colt. His sire and dam were both HOY, two of the best known horses in the last couple decades, he won his maiden last December, and nothing's happened since. The Jacksons are trying to replicate the success they had with Barbaro, where they bred two great horses and wound up with the best traits of both.
Now, I will say, there is some information carried on the X chromosome only - the gene for an enlarged heart. Most of the great racehorses in history have had it, and that's why Secretariat became known as a broodmare sire - he had a copy from his dam, and passed it on to his daughters, who passed it on to their foals. But even when a horse possesses that gene, it doesn't change the amount of information the chromosome contains, just the type.
And for everyone fussing about "oh, your all bein mean, were not stupid so don't act like we are" - good grief. Grow up, then go take a college composition class. People will take you a lot more seriously when you can use grammar and punctuation correctly.
Kate 20 Oct 2010 2:44 AM
Kate,
The assertion that the X chromosome has more actual genes than the Y chromosome is correct.  Recent studies show that the human Y chromosome has dropped many genes off it in a fairly short period of time.
What is faulty is the leap of logic that somehow this fact--more actual genes on the X chromosome--somehow imparts superiority in the progeny.
The other leap in logic is the assertion there is this mythical "X Factor" for supposed enlarged heart.  It just isn't there in the science.  If it had been, believe me it would have been identified at the recent symposium that was specifically geared to genetic testing for improved Thoroughbred performance.  No, not a word was breathed about this mysterious X Factor.
JAJ 20 Oct 2010 7:45 AM
Oh Goody, The grammar & puncuation police are here to tell us how we should feel and how superior their education is.
Criminal Type 20 Oct 2010 8:13 AM
Dona,
I don't know if the new horses were Thoroughbreds or not--I was only looking at the page of horses available for adoption and there were no Thoroughbreds.
I didn't mean to imply that the Thoroughbred industry is doing a stellar job of rehoming unwanted Thoroughbreds, only that they were doing something and were taking the issue seriously, very seriously.
Yes, Thoroughbreds end up going to slaughter, but so do other breeds
I am happy that our industry is addressing the issue and I believe a lot more will be done in the future.
JAJ 20 Oct 2010 8:19 AM
Hey Sandieh
Hope your healthy and loving life and petting your new kittyy love, If I lost any of my dogs I would be devistated  oops meant devastated...
Your right Mary..
Cut the over breeding of horses and one would eliminate or greatly slow the need of horselaughter and rescues....
Ragsy 20 Oct 2010 12:54 PM
GregJ
Do you know when the Brothers will go to Florida? I want to see them in person. I know the Jackson's read this blog.
What a great honor to watch Nicanor and Lentenor from conception to the present and we owe it to Mr.& Mrs.Roy Jackson, to them, Thank You!  What a dream come true...
Ragsy 20 Oct 2010 2:08 PM
Ragsy,
I think you are being naive to think that you can eliminate the unwanted horse problem by simply cutting the over breeding of horses.  It is not that simple.
I agree that many horses need to be removed from the breeding shed, but what do you do with all those mares taken out of production?
The expected Thoroughbred foal crop for 2011 has dropped to the lowest levels since the early 70s.
In 1989 there were over 45,000 Thoroughbred foals produced.  Next year they expect only about 27,000 foals.
In 2010, there has been a drop of about 12% in foals (about 30,000), next year will have a similar drop.
The approximate production of Thoroughbred foals according to The Jockey Club is:
2008, 36,600 foals
2009, 34,000 foals
2010, 30,000 foals
expected foal crop 2011, 27,000 foals.
The Thoroughbred industry IS reducing their production of horses.  In 2011, there will be approximately 10,000 less foals produced than there were in 2008.
What happened to their mothers?
I know some found new careers as riding horses.  My own broodmare's mother went on to a successful career as a show horse.  My trainer has rehomed her broodmares into show homes and they are doing very well on the show circuit.  The reality is that there are only so many homes to go around and horses cost a lot more than dogs and cats to keep.
It is not a simple problem, but one that the racing industry IS addressing.
JAJ 20 Oct 2010 2:52 PM
Someone earlier asked about whether or not Thoroughbreds could be successful racing at 7, 8, 9 or 10.
Today it was announced that Cloudy's Knight is being retired.  He is 10 years old, has earned $2.5 million winning 14 of his 42 starts.  He started once this year, second in the Grade III Kentucky Cup Turf Stakes.  Last year at 9, he was just nosed out in the Breeders Cup Marathon.
Another horse who competed for many years at the very top level was John Henry, who earned $2,886.650 in his final year of racing at age 9.  That year, at 9 years of age he started 9 times with 6 wins, one second and one third.  He was named Horse of the Year as well as champion older turf male.  His total lifetime earnings were $6,591.860.
There are many more.
JAJ 20 Oct 2010 4:00 PM
This is considered ABUSE
Everyone needs to read Cyber Bullying, Adult Bullying, in the adult they exhibit an authorarian personality with the strong need to control and dominate another, its a power struggle and most of these were bullying in childhood. It is an emerging threat online...interesting.
Ragsy 20 Oct 2010 4:37 PM
Ace Hare you are right ordinary horses and some races just stiffs.Now you'll be attacked personally because you expressed your opinion and TOLD THE TRUTH!lol
How about Frankel I told the blog he was a star and he's proving it.These brothers need to race at Mountaineer or Emerald downs , then maybe they could compete!
2 time valley player of the year 20 Oct 2010 4:57 PM
Goodness, all this talk about correct grammar and punctuation is a little overboard. That being said anyone can have all sorts of degrees and take all sorts of classes, but more is gained with hands on experience.  I am a nurse and I was taught a lot of about rational when I was in nursing school which made sense at the time, but my real experience came when I actually worked in a hospital and gained hands on experience. I enjoy this blog a lot and what I enjoy the most is the learning experience from all no matter what degree you have, not the talking down to one another.
Penny in TX 20 Oct 2010 5:00 PM
Hi JAJ,
I believe the horse I was referring to was 11 years of age. My question was how old is too old.
John Henry was one of the greatest thoroughbreds ever. I loved watching him.
This horse Don't Ya Lovett hasn't done too bad for himself over the years. But his 2010 winnings has been a might dismal.
I don't know, you know way more about horses than I. Should this guy, oops, I mean gelding be retired?
2010 Racing Summary:
Starts Firsts Seconds Thirds Earnings
9 0 0 1 $ 5,400
See 2010 Year-to-Date for all Horses
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Career Racing Summary:
Starts Firsts Seconds Thirds Earnings  
46  12  7 6 $ 253,650
Kathy 20 Oct 2010 5:56 PM
And on another note, I just saw the movie Secretariat and it vividly brought back memories of Secretariat's Triple Crown. It was also fun to see behind the scenes. And whether it was completely true to life, let the experts be the judge. I however, must say that I thoroughly enjoyed it.
I must say, I am not very observant though. If the movie is correct, prior to the Belmont, Secretariat was always last until the last moment and then with a burst of speed overtook his opponents. As everyone knows, Secretariat threw that strategy out the window during the Belmont Stakes.
And not to annoy or provoke, but Sham's heart during the necropsy was found to weigh 18 pounds per Wikipedia data. Was Sham's heart big from the get go, or was it diseased and that is why he had a heart attack at age 23?
Kathy 20 Oct 2010 6:21 PM
Kathy,
I have no idea if this horse should be racing or not.  You would really have to go over the horse to make that judgement.
Here's another example of the Thoroughbred industry starting to crack down on abusive situations.
This spring Bruno Schickedanz (not to be confused with his brother Gus) sent Wake At Noon, a former Canadian Horse of the Year and winner of over a million dollars to Woodbine to breeze in preparation for a return to the races after failing as a stallion.  (A horse needs an official published breeze within 30 days of a race.)  I think he was something like 13 years old.  He was properly documented to enter the Woodbine backstretch.  Sadly, Wake at Noon broke down and was put down on the training track.
The horsemen on the backstretch went crazy and wanted Bruno's head.  Bruno's head was delivered by Woodbine who banned Schickedanz and his trainer from the grounds.  Indefinitely.  Bruno appealed the decision to the Ontario Racing Commission and they upheld Woodbine's position.  Bruno had been ruled off for engaging in activities that would bring disrepute to racing.
I think in the future you will find more and more tracks disciplining trainers for practices unbecoming to the racing industry, things that might have been tolerated in the past.
Things ARE improving.
JAJ 20 Oct 2010 7:25 PM
JAJ, one of my favorite retired Thoroughbreds, Tin Man, raced successfully until he was 9 with earnings close to 3,663,000.Tin Man  suffered a fracture after a surgical procedure and was retired. Sired by Triple Crown Winner Affirmed, Tin Man is a strong, beautiful horse.
Ragsy, I will be adopting "Jimmy" this Friday, he looks a lot like my Sammy. Since the Jackson's read this blog,then they know how much we are in love with LaVille Rouge and the Brothers. I really wish that one day I could be lucky enough to meet the Jackson's. I would tell Gretchen again how very special Barbaro was, in the way that Barbaro inspired me to be near and love horse's again after losing my beloved cousin from an accident several years earlier.
Penny in Tx, I work in a hospital also. It is sad when a person has to be critical of another persons spelling in a negative way.I agree with you.
sandieh 20 Oct 2010 7:40 PM
Some of the adults in this site are really acting like children.  I am a teenager I must say that many are acting like kids, although no offense intended.  These brothers have the right to lose they are not machines.  Good thing they are not human because they would be saying nasty stuff.  Can't people say their opinions, but should not cross the line.  These are some people who just want attention and feel they must say their opinion getting people riled up on purpose.  Those are the ones that should not even bother to post.  Take this from a kid who gets annoyed when adults act like this.  Seriuosly some should just get a life or just stay quiet if you have nothing good to say. Sure there will be arguing, but seriously just stop when it gets out of hand.  If I was the moderator I would just simply not allow people who are being rude delete their post.
lme 20 Oct 2010 8:03 PM
Kathy, Secretariat was a closer, until the Preakness, where as Ron Turcotte described it, he was dead last on the first turn and Ron made a jesture with his left hand, like he was trying to adjust something on his right sleeve or cuff, then he immediately took Secretariat to the outside, and the horse took off.
After the Preakness, Lucien Lauren, in the Belmont, instructed Ron to just let him run his own race, let him go, and away he went.  Secretariat's closing days were over.
Mary 20 Oct 2010 8:35 PM
JAJ,
Would Woodbine have had any authority to refuse to let Wake At Noon breeze?  What they did was good but was there any way to have prevented the outcome in the first place?  Wouldn't they have known that the horse had been off the track for some time?
Horsefirst 20 Oct 2010 8:39 PM
Kate, I'm an attorney and an English major.  Your remarks about grammar and spelling, etc. ridiculous.  We are talking about horses here.  As far as genetics, I know what I'm talking about, enough said.
Mary 20 Oct 2010 8:48 PM
sandieh, Tin Man, I love him
Mary 20 Oct 2010 8:54 PM
Horsefirst,
Woodbine has a rule in effect that was meant to prevent such a tragedy as Wake at Noon's.  The rule, "any horse older than 10 that has not won in the last year isn’t eligible to race at the track."  Wake at Noon was thirteen and had not been on the track since Nov. 2007, last winning on Oct. 27 at Fort Erie.  He was ineligible to race at Woodbine, and was also ineligible to have a workout or have access to a stall.  Schickedanz bypassed track security and this rule for Wake at Noon's fatal breeze.
Woodbine did the right thing by banning Schickedanz and his trainer, Tom Marino.  The problem is, Woodbine’s ban has no impact on Schickedanz’s right to continue racing horses at Fort Erie and in other jurisdictions, including the United States.
Greg J. 20 Oct 2010 9:50 PM
Kathy, Secretariat's heart was not weighed upon autopsy, but visually it was huge.  At autopsy, Sham's heart weighed in at 18 lbs., so it was determined that Secretariat's heart weighed approx. 23 lbs.  These two amazing horses simply had huge hearts.
Secretariat, in the Belmont,  knocked two seconds off of the track record.  His huge heart was pumping so much oxygen into his lungs, that he didn't even take a breathe until the race was over.  That track record will likely stand forever.
Mary 20 Oct 2010 10:44 PM
Greg J,
Wake at Noon had all the correct paperwork to ship in for a breeze.  It is somewhat debatable whether or not Wake At Noon was ineligible to breeze at Woodbine.  Yes, Greg, I too was disappointed that Schickedanz is still allowed to race at Fort Erie and other tracks.
In the appeal, the issue of Wake At Noon not be eligible to use Woodbine facilities was discussed, but the ruling was made that Schickedanz was in violation of Woodbine's Rule 1.1 and 3.6.
Rule 1.1 states that anything injurious to the sport of horseracing or not in the best interests to the sport of horseracing may result in the imposition of a penalty.  Rule 3.6 deals a person's handling of animals without regard to their well being and causing physical and mental pain.
I'm including below some paragraphs taken from the Ontario Racing Commission's ruling.  I think it will show some people on this blog, people who are not closely aligned with the industry just how seriously we in the industry take the welfare of the horse.  Woodbine is one of the most, if not the most profitable racetracks in North America.
From Ontario Racing Commission Ruling Number COM TB 020/2010
REASONS FOR DECISION
42.  .......Racing suffers self-inflicted misery from such as medication and chemist cheats or cruelty such as excessive whipping. Callous insensitivity in the care of racing stock offends the public sense of fairness. Instinctive revulsion to cruelty is a normal human response. Cruelty, apart from being intrinsically wrong, is harmful to the best interests of racing by eroding public support. Horses must rely on tracks and the regulator for protection.
63. The health and welfare of the horse is a prime element in the well being of racing....
82. Racehorses just as all horses have rights.
JAJ 20 Oct 2010 11:30 PM
Ime...I agree with you. Some people on this site need to get a life or at least quite picking on silly things such as a miss spelled word now and then. I don't care how many degrees they have behind their name.
Glad we got a young persons views on this site. Please write more often. We need to hear from the younger generation to. Ooops, I ended my sentence with to.  My bad!
Thanks for your comments!
Lou in TX 20 Oct 2010 11:39 PM
Internet link crashed last night so I couldn't ask: Dona, where did you get info on Holy Ground's winner? I so want to follow this boy's stallion career!
I wish someone would start a horse genetics blog - probably more appropriate on TheHorse.com? Love genetics, especially horse color genetics. Love all the new gene mapping and the answers to mysteries - like when will the Jockey Club enter the 21st century and recognize black as a color, and get the roan out!
diastu 21 Oct 2010 12:59 AM
JAJ,
I hadn't read that Wake at Noon had all of his paperwork in order for his breeze, thanks.
Lou,
I agree, enough already about the spelling mistakes everyone, nobody is perfect.
Diastu,
Here is a great blog on Bloodhorse,  "The Five-Cross Files", it looks at topics that concern Thoroughbred breeders and pedigree enthusiasts.  Here is one topic from last week, very informative!:
"Broodmarathon: Given Terms Offers Opportunity to Obtain Barbaro's Family"
cs.bloodhorse.com/.../broodmarathon-given-terms-offers-opportunity-to-obtain-barbaro-s-family.aspx
Greg J. 21 Oct 2010 7:28 AM
Sometimes. reading this blog is an exercise in courage and endurance.  There are those of you with lots of knowledge and we learn a lot from your posts. Then there are the "trolls" who just come on the blog to stir things up and cause trouble (and you know who you are -- we do, too.)
I'd far rather learn something here than have to put up with the insults.  We (most of us) are here because we love this family of horses,having become familiar with them through Barbaro.  He's gone and his brothers remain -- and there are three of them.  So far, Nicanor and Lentenor have taken the brunt of the insults and put downs and Margano hasn't even really begun training.  Can we declare a truce?  Ace Hare, Two Time Valley Player, and others of you who visit occasionally, we know and fully get what your opinions are.  Don't  keep restating them -- you just look like jerks who are here just to needle us and get a reaction.  Haven't you anything better to do?
Marigold 21 Oct 2010 7:51 AM
Just to add something about claiming horses.  The Jacksons do have claimers, not necessarily the lower levels, but they have had a handful of horses claimed  and/or offered for claim and subsequently sold in the past year.  (as low as $16k)
I'm not sure if these horses were "loved" like the brothers.
gonzalez 21 Oct 2010 8:58 AM
Mary, Your right this blog is for following the Barbaro family, It's supposed to be fun and to gain knowledge. Education has nothing to do with being a fan or these horses or racing in general.
For the record, I do not have a college education. In fact I don't even had a high school diploma. I got my GED 20 yrs after dropping out of high school because I missed the first three months of 12 grade term due to a near fatal car accident. What I got instead was a lifetime of knowledge gained by reading voraciously, practical experience and whole lot learned by mistakes made. I've been around horses all my life, they've taught me a lot, too.
I'm a Realtor, I don't know squat about genetics, but I can read a pedigree and know most, if not all the horses in them. If I don't know about them, I find out because I want to know.
For anyone to insult someone because they may not be educationally equal to themselves, in order to feel superior, on a blog that's for fun, has issues no amount of education will resolve.
If I offended anyone, I apologize.
Criminal Type 21 Oct 2010 11:07 AM
Greg...I apologize for the spelling deal.  We all need to move on and have fun on this site.
Loved the article about Barbaro's aunt. Sure hope someone nice buys her. She sounds like a lovely mare.
If not for breeding, what about a nice childs horse? Hopefully someone will take notice of this mare and take care of her.
Lou in TX 21 Oct 2010 12:01 PM
Lou in TX,
The unwanted horse problem isn't that simple that you can just take a broodmare and find her a home as a child's riding horse. Aside from the amount of training to do that, there just aren't those homes any longer.
The economy is really tight and people who had pet/riding horses are giving them up.  Feeding a dog or a cat while your income has plummeted is one thing, but a horse?
There is a contraction in the breeding industry at the same time that there is a contraction in the pet/riding horse segment.  The last two years were not a good time to be a marginal broodmare.
JAJ 21 Oct 2010 2:55 PM
Sandieh
I am so glad that you will get another kittyy soon, nothing like that love that will join the family..
half of my barn roof colapsed when a tree fell, gotta get out and cut more tree's so you guys have fun..
 I just found a lost horse on my property yesterday, cant find the owner yet..he is a chestnut. guess I will keep him if no one claims...
Ragsy 21 Oct 2010 3:05 PM
Older Horses competing at the top levels:  Brass Hat, 9 years old, just won the Grade 3 Sycamore Stakes at Keeneland, 1 1/2 mile on the turf.  Ten year old Cloudy's Knight had been the favorite, but was retired a day or two ago.
JAJ 21 Oct 2010 5:33 PM
Criminal Type, I have always enjoyed your posts.  Love your name also. You have taught me something new about horses every time you post. Your last post said it all. Ime, I agree with Lou in TX. Sometimes adults learn from the mouth of babes, please come back.  I think it is fun just to follow these brothers, win or lose.  It has really given me insight to the ups and downs of horse racing.
Has it been confirmed that Margano is in training?  How about an update.
Penny in TX 21 Oct 2010 5:36 PM
Damn Ragsy, I hope there were no injuries or casualties when your barn roof fell. That's gotta suck. Hope you have good friends & neighbors to help you get it back under roof before winter gets to you. Wish you much better luck.
Criminal Type 21 Oct 2010 6:20 PM
Ragsy...be careful out there cutting down trees. Like Criminal Type said , we hope you have some friends that can help you put that roof back on. Hope no one or an animal were in the barn when the roof came down. Good luck my friend.
Lou in TX 21 Oct 2010 7:08 PM
JAJ.. well hopefully some one will take her in and be kind and gentle with her. We can all hope.
Found an article some time ago about a lady that rescued Secretariat's full brother from a feed lot and took him home. He was 32 at the time. Wonder if he's still living. Never heard anything about him after that.
Lou in TX 21 Oct 2010 7:15 PM
Lou,
His name was Straight Flush (Riva Ridge/Somethingroyal), a half brother to the great Secretariat.  He was rescued from a Texas feed lot in 1999 for $200.
On September 3rd, 2007 he passed away in his sleep at age 32.
Here is his story:
www.secretariat.com/brother.html
Greg J. 21 Oct 2010 8:16 PM
I read about Straight Flush a couple of years ago.  My heart aches.  
Mary 21 Oct 2010 9:10 PM
Thanks Greg. I think that was the article I read awhile back. So glad he died a happy horse and that Penney C. could recall how nice a horse he was when she had him.
I hadn't heard that he died but I figured he might have since he was so old.
Heard any news on Margarno being shipped to Fla.? I would imagine he is there by now. Hope Ms. Stevens will give an interview about him someday so we can all hear how he is doing in school.
Lou in TX 21 Oct 2010 9:29 PM
Greg, thank you.  I have talked about Le Reine Rouge many times, this most beautiful dam of La Ville Rouge.  Look at her pedigree, and at the same time watch Barbaro run.
Mary 21 Oct 2010 9:34 PM
Criminal Type, I don't know about your name, but you know what your talking about.  Thank you.
Mary 21 Oct 2010 10:06 PM
Can you please talk more about horse racing than personal things.  I would really like to know more about horse racing that is why I even bother to come to this site.  I also like to follow the brothers without any expectations though.  I am young and know very little about horse racing.  That is why I want to hear more horse racing talk.  Please act like adults should.
lme 21 Oct 2010 10:36 PM
Greg, great story about Straight Flush, really enjoyed it.  Mary is there any pictures of Le Reine Rouge?  What a beautiful name.
Penny in TX 21 Oct 2010 11:42 PM
thanks to HorseFirst for making the point about how gelding can help a male horse. to Criminal Type, i wasnt questioning Lentenor's credentials as a potential stallion, i just was voicing some discouragement. the truth of the matter is that Barbaro's brothers will never be him. Barbaro was a special horse, and you cant duplicate specialness. too bad Lentenor didnt win, but hope he's okay.
christy tate 22 Oct 2010 12:40 AM
diastu -
Saw it on TVG, within the last 10 days. Ken Rudolph was talking about him but I don't remember what track it was. Had to be between Wednesday thru Sunday, those are the days that Ken works.
Dona 22 Oct 2010 1:03 AM
Thanks Greg J - I did read the Given Terms blog and also the genetics-laden report from the genetics seminar. Hope BH offers a CD of the proceedings. Look forward to your next report on BOBs.
Criminal Type - hold your head up on that GED!
Ime - keep 'em coming. You are a welcome fresh voice.
diastu 22 Oct 2010 3:04 AM
Mary..My name? Nothing illegal, I promise. You do know who Criminal Type was, yes? He was in my opinion, one of Alydar's best son's and what a clever name (his mother was Klepto).
Aly sired a number of good colts, Alysheba, Easy Goer, Strike the Gold, Turkoman (broodmare sire to Hard Spun, etc) but Criminal Type (Eclipse award winnning older horse of 1990) and Saratoga Six,  (brodmare sire to Champagne D'oro) were always my favorites.
It is so sad that Alydar left us so young, only 15, especially given the mysterious circumstances surrounding his injury and subsequent death. There is a special place in hell reserved for those who hurt this gloriously gorgeous animal. They know who they are and so do some of us.
Sadly Saratoga Six was killed in a barn fire at JEH Stallion Station in New Mexico on June 6, 2006, together with the farms other 5 stallions and Criminal Type went to Japan for stud duty and died of a ruptured stomach in 2005. Many believe that Criminal Type has been overlooked by the Hall of Fame due to the scandals that engulfed Calumet Farm in the early 1990s, including the alleged murder of Criminal Type's sire, Alydar for insurance proceeds. He is also the broodmare sire of Ten Most Wanted.
Criminal Type 22 Oct 2010 8:36 AM
HorseFirst,
I didn't answer your questions very well the first time around....
Yes, Woodbine had the authority to refuse Wake At Noon admittance to the grounds.  It probably isn't practical to go through all the information in order to come to that conclusion.  That information is on two different forms--the stabling form and the In Slip.  A lot of horses ship in and out of Woodbine--doing research and making decisions on every horse is probably not practical.  And who would be making the decisions?  Security?
I'm sure Woodbine is reviewing this very issue and will make some changes.  Everyone at Woodbine from the backstretch to the front side were horrified that it happened.
I think the way Woodbine handled it--stomping really hard on those who made the decision to breeze Wake At Noon that day--is a pretty good deterrent.
JAJ 22 Oct 2010 10:18 AM
Lou,Criminal Type,  I allow people with horses to ride on my property and scout around ,yesterday they came back and found that chestnut on top of the hill was one of theirs so he is back home.
I think it is so neat to see people still on horseback, one of my GSD'S follow them around like he belongs, he loves horses so..
Those nice people are helping me repair and remove downed trees for firewood, guess,some good in all things.  see you guys later, the horses (and their people) are back and I want to get more work done, its always nice to have help...
Ragsy 22 Oct 2010 12:04 PM
Sandieh, did you get your new fur person today. Animals do make our lives more interesting.
Ragsy, so glad you got help with those trees. I too allow horses on our back pasture. I love feeding carrots to the 2 that are there.  The sound their hooves make when they run is wonderful.
Criminal Type, very interesting story, enjoyed it.  Keep it coming.
Penny in TX 22 Oct 2010 2:07 PM
Some of you probably have already read this article, but I thought it might be very interesting to those who had different opinions on the genetics topic. It supports the large heart x factor theory being passed down through the female line and includes research that has been conducted on theory. The author also says that the x chromosome carries more genetic material because it is larger, as I know that was brought up earlier as well. If I remember correctly, and I could be thinking of someone else, but isn't one of the key factors the Jackson's consider when choosing broodmares their physical size as opposed to their ability on the track? I don't know much at all about genetics, but it is interesting and enlightening to hear both sides on the matter.
horsesonly.com/.../heart-1.htm
As far as jocks and the brothers go, I don't think a consistent jockey would make a difference. Mike Smith knows Zenyatta, yes, and that helps him time his move and his riding style suits her running style, but he has misjudged the pace in a race and she won by a desperate nose. Knowing the horse can help, but the best jockeys know how to read each and every horse, and should get enough information on how to ride the horse from the trainer. A decision on whether or not to trust the rider is more based on the horse sensing the rider's emotions as soon as they get on their back, which will influence the horse's state of mind and trust. Careless Jewel's jockey had a knack for keeping her calmer, but she is an example of a difficult horse; Lentenor and Nicanor seem pretty straight forward in their running style and are easy to manage. Top jockeys decisions in the race are the most influential between horse and rider and the outcome- the best jockeys can cause even the very best horses to lose, although sometimes the horses are so smart and talented that they can overcome the mistakes. Hall of Famer Gary Stevens said that he wouldn't have made the right decision that 18 yr old Joe Talamo made when I Want Revenge broke badly in the Wood Memorial and how the wrong decision in rushing him up could have cost them the race.  Chris McCarron, alysheba's regular rider, regretted ignoring Van Berg's instructions of taking  Alysheba (my very first and alltime favorite) to the front in the Belmont- he thought he knew the horse but not as well as Van berg did. The alysheba video on bloodhorse has that conversation with jack. Garret Gomez knew 'lucky really well, but baffert said that it was gomez's decision to stay on the rail that cost them the santa anita derby. Martin Garcia rode lucky for the first time in the preakness, listened to baffert's instructions, and they ran a great race. Martin knew the horse well from the morning works, but riding in a race for the first time is another thing. Jerry Bailey, in the bloodhorse cigar video, stated that if cigar got beat, it was probably going to be jerry's fault. I think Secretariat could have won the belmont with penny chenery in the irons (exaggerating of course, but as long as she stayed on? possibly)- he was just a monster that day. The margin that he won by was what would have been different about that race if you he had another rider. He probably would have pulled anyone to the front so the way in which he ran the race could have been the same. Turcotte didn't even ask him for run. Seabiscuit won the great matchrace with war admiral with a new jockey because the jockey was one of the best and rode as the trainer had taught the horse, to use early speed.  From what i have heard jockey's say, they were just along for the ride and in no way does it lead me to believe that switching riders doesn't give a horse time to trust the rider. You have to trust each other moving at those speeds, and when you see a lack of trust and communication it's really obvious and they don't fair well- Big Brown Belmont debacle. Dutrow said the horse for some reason was not listening to and fighting kent after the bad start and the race was over from there. I watched a few feet away as he strangled Big Brown to the finish line, petrified that he was hurt, and I feel fighting him was probably more likely to cause injury by fighting and abruptly bring him to a stop rather than stop riding on him and letting him finish last.
Matching riding styles from jockey to horse, I feel is much more important as it helps the two work together and listen to each other, or try to keep a jockey who is able to settle a very unpredictable horse. Getting a jockey who is really on fire that meet or really knows the track well (calvin borel on derby day) could help. Lentenor had a bad trip but I don't think it was because of the jockey- he had to commit to his position on the first turn and as it was mentioned other horses had worse trips and did better. Maybe once he realizes he isn't going to win, he just doesn't care and stops trying, i don't know. Only Robbie Albarado, lentenor, and MM know what really happened that day.
(sorry the post is so long!)
Dee 22 Oct 2010 4:06 PM
Dee, except for your words on the supposed X Factor, I enjoyed your post very much.
Haun is a writer NOT a scientist.  She came up with her "theory" because she wanted an explanation for Secretariat's large heart.  She used pedigrees.  There is no science behind her hypothesis.
Just remember, an earthworm shares 80% of the same genetic material as humans.  Yup, 80%.
JAJ 22 Oct 2010 5:30 PM
Oh, Criminal Type, I do remember Alydar's great son, and also the suspicious circumstances surrounding Alydar's death.  I haven't thought about his untimely death in a while.  It was just so horrifying to me that this could happen to this most magnificent animal.
Alydar and Affirmed, Affirmed's trainer said after Affirmed won the triple crown, that he was greater than Secretariat and all of the other triple crown winners, because they never had to face a horse like "Alydar".
Mary 22 Oct 2010 5:39 PM
Dee, Lentenor if he is not right up there with the pace, will lose the race.  If you watch Barbaro's races, he was always very close to the pacesetter.  Barbaro likely would have won all of his races on the lead.  He was that great!!!        
Nicanor is a little different, but my analysis is based only on Nicanor's last race. Nicanor breaks from the gate really quick and has good early speed, so he doesn't have to rely on a good trip passing horses to get into a position and win.  He also has heart, which in his last race, allowed him to fend off challengers.
Mary 22 Oct 2010 6:12 PM
Ragsy, I do hope that everything is coming together with your barn, and that you have lots of help. Stay safe!
Penny in Tx, "Jimmy" will be here tonight, I am waiting for him now!
Animals are great company, especially when family is not near.
Greg, thank you for the info on Straight Flush. Sad, but I am glad he was able to live out a few more years. So interesting and educational what we are learning here.
sandieh 22 Oct 2010 6:41 PM
Sandieh...I am sooo excited about your new family menber.  Did you pick the name Jimmy or was he already named that? I just love my Miss Kitty. It's nice not to have to come home to an empty house.
Hope you have been feeling much better. It's great to see you posting a lot. Enjoy your new pet and please keep us posted on how things go.
Lou in TX 22 Oct 2010 8:34 PM
JAJ, I'm too tired to talk about earthworms tonight, but I will tomorrow.
You really should do a little reading about the X-factor.  Penny Chenery, Secretariat's owner talked about the X-factor after Secretariat died.  
Mary 22 Oct 2010 9:38 PM
Dee, also Nicanor is not a straight forward kind of horse.  He is beautiful, but he is intense, difficult, head strong, etc. etc. etc.
Mary 22 Oct 2010 10:14 PM
Mary,
Quote me the scientists and the studies, not some writer who has no scientific background.  No, don't bother--there are no scientists or studies to back up the claims by this writer.
I shouldn't care that you continue to spew this misinformation.  It makes no difference to the Thoroughbred breed or racing in general if all the fans in the world believe that rubbish since they don't plan any breedings and will have zero impact on the breed.
JAJ 22 Oct 2010 10:16 PM
JAJ, I am done with you and your comments, you are such a bully.  My information is credible.  I will no longer respond to anything that you post.
Everyone, have a nice evening.
Mary 22 Oct 2010 10:45 PM
JAJ
We all know you are the expert on this subject but could you please just let this subject go!!!!!!!! We are all tired of this bickering back and forth.  Give it a rest already.
You are running people off this site because of this stupid one uping all the time.  Ime is young and has ask us to please be adults ans stop acting sooo childish. There are others on this site that definitely agree with her.
PLEASE PLEASE STOP THIS NONSENSE
Lou in TX 22 Oct 2010 10:46 PM
JAJ,
What little I had heard about the theory was from those who spoke about it here, and I thought it might be helpful for myself in determining an opinion. It seemed almost word for word in what those in favor were saying here so I thought it appropriate to point out where their point of view was from. But as you said, this is from a writer, not from a scientific research standpoint. Actually I didn't finish reading the article completely and missed out on the earthworm connection, as I got caught up in writing the second half of my post about jockeys and horses. What stands out to me is how something does or in this case, does not hold up to the science and the lack of use of it in the industry. If there were a "secret" to producing the best kinds of racehorses, why wouldn't the breeders want to focus on that and do more research? If there is no one following or looking into this theory in practice then that certainly says a lot... to me at least.
Mary,
Nicanor does appear to be more on the muscle, in the paddock and in his determination to be on the lead, than Lentenor. I'm not sure if that makes him more complicated or more predictable. What I know of their behavior is only what I have learned from the blog providing us with what the Jackson's and MM have said and watching them on tv computer screen. Unfortunately I have yet to see either in person, but hopefully they will be back up to NY sometime.
In watching Lentenor's debut race from nearly a year ago, he broke slowly and then used his early speed to be a length and a half off the leader, but around the turn he was caught in traffic and came from midpack, having to maneuver around several horses and when he did get clear he made a really nice move to finish a strong third- if he had gotten clear sooner, he would have been a challenge to the winner and could have won from off the pace. In the Kent stakes he made that similar middle move that looked impressive but he flattened out in the Kent after the slow pace. I think he is more versatile than Nicanor in where he can be placed, as he seems to be comfortable in a stalking position and why use him early if he is settled. In his second race he made a strong move early to advance pretty quickly to 5th before he made a second move around the turn and just missed to the winner. If he hadn't been used earlier and made one move from farther back, maybe he could have gotten past the leader? Just a thought. My observation would be that he is effective coming from off the pace and was learning and came close in his earlier career, showing a lot of promise, and now he hasn't quite returned to that form yet where we see him sustaining that strong bid on the turn.
Nicanor has more early speed that shoots him to the front like you said... Barbaro had that early speed combined with the staying power to carry that speed over distance, and could win on the lead or sitting behind a fast pace like the Derby. The one thing in common they all have really is the heart, the determination we have seen in all three of them in winning and in the narrow losses.  
Dee 23 Oct 2010 12:20 AM
Sorry to be off subject but:
    GO TEXAS RANGERS!!!!!
Lou in TX 23 Oct 2010 12:35 AM
JAJ - It matters when posting statements like they are true facts, when in reality, it's just someones opinion. Seems this site especially draws a lot of newbees to the racing world and they will get a lot of misinformation and form opinions based on groundless assertions. It may not matter to the racing world but opinions are being formed here and we owe it to one another to keep it straight. I can respect someone if they say something outrageous, while making it clear it's just their opinion and they're not being hurtful to someone. Truth is some people search and search until they find someone spouting the same story that want to believe and then take that validation as fact. JAJ, don't stop fighting the fight. Untruths and misinformation statements need fighters.
Voyaager 23 Oct 2010 3:20 AM
Mary, you did it again!
"Lentenor if he is not right up there with the pace will lose the race". Huh?
You know this statement to be true because you have it straight from the horses mouth?
It seems you like to analyize  races and give your take on what's going on but please try to refrain from making such outrageous statements. Let me give you an example: It appears to me that Lentenor has to be near the pace or he stops trying and loses the race. That's expressing an opinion rather than making a wild claim.
And by the way, just what exactly is a straight forward kind of horse? You said Nicanor is not a straight forward kind of horse.
I'm just blown away by some of the things you say and find it so unreal that others out there let it slide.  Either people feel they're too nice and won't say anything, don't care one way or another or are brain dead.      
Voyager 23 Oct 2010 3:53 AM
Dee -
Where did you get the idea that the Jacksons consider the mares physical size rather than their abilty at the track?  Are you kidding?
Are you under the impression that La Ville Rouge is a large mare?
Do you think they bought Precious Kitten because she was large? Not only was she not a large mare but she had a very good career at the track.
I think you will find the Jacksons buy their mares for a lot or reasons namely pedigree, ability and potential.
Voyager 23 Oct 2010 4:18 AM
Voyager, have you watched their races?
Okay everyone, for the most part I have enjoyed reading your comments on this blog, but there are a couple of people on here that are just unbelievably rude.
So I will no longer read or post anything on this blog.   I will say this, the bullying has gotten out of hand.  A bully knows everything and goes on and on with long posts expressing this "so-called" knowledge. If an individual says anything that the bully disagrees with, he becomes unbelievably nasty.
Actually bullies are simply insecure individuals who really don't know a whole lot.
Good bye everyone.  For a while I enjoyed it here.
Mary 23 Oct 2010 7:54 AM
Where to begin?
First, I believe some need to understand this is a blog that people are going to voice their opinion, they are opinion's people, sometimes you must agree to disagree.
Regarding the "X factor" theory, it is a theory, while very interesting, it is not a proven fact.  People can choose to believe in it, but until it is recognised as a fact, it is all speculation, IMHO.
Mary,
Hope you reconsider :)
Lou,
Congrats on the Texas Rangers beating the Yankees!  Being a diehard Red Sox fan, I couldn't be happier!
Now, back to what this blog is about, Barbaro's brothers :)
Nicanor had his second workout since his victory on Sep. 24 at Belmont.  He worked 5 furlongs this past thursday at Fair Hill on the dirt track, he covered the distance in 1:01.00, listed as "breezing".  This comes after having a work on Oct. 10, where he covered 4 furlongs in :48.60 on the dirt track at Fair Hill.  Let's hope he can get into a race very soon, fingers crossed.
Greg J. 23 Oct 2010 10:35 AM
Voyager- I started that comment by saying that I could be wrong in what I remembered hearing, which I thought might have been from a Barbaro documentary- that the size of the mare was a consideration, not the one and only ultimate decision. As I said I did hear a breeder/owner say that, and didn't state it as an absolute truth. I first said that I could be wrong in what I was remembering.
"I think you will find the Jacksons buy their mares for a lot or reasons namely pedigree, ability and potential." I agree, but was merely pointing out that size was possibly ONE of the factors I remembered them saying that they might consider. I will try to find the exactly who and where it was that said this- I wasn't pulling it out of thin air.
Dee 23 Oct 2010 10:40 AM
Its great that Nicanor has had a work and will be running soon,may the spirits be with him...my people always held the belief that souls and spirits were in animals...may the Great Spirit be with Nicanor and Lentenor...and Margano....
Its great to see horses in my round pen again, these men are unbelievable, because I have allowed them access to my property they are rebuilding my barn so their horses can stay comfortably when they camp out...and they refuse my money. now, how cool is that....
Ragsy 23 Oct 2010 11:56 AM
JAJ   you refer to there being a
world of differnce in american
horse racing and european... could
you explain what you mean.. i am
trying to learn all i can about
horse racing
nmh 23 Oct 2010 1:11 PM
Mary, I enjoy your posts and hope you come back.
But, it is NOT bullying to remind people that there is no scientific evidence for the X factor.  You may believe it with all your heart but if you claim it as a fact, you need the studies to back it up.
I got real excited when I first read about the X factor.  Then, when nothing came out, no study, nothing that was not someone's conjecture, I could not support it any more.
I also could not support it once I got to thinking about it.  Only the mare can pass it on.  Only a double copy mare could pass it on every time, otherwise, it's a 50 percenter.
But, if there really were anything to the X factor, all the offspring who got it should consistently be better than and compete in the top echelon's of racing- and those that don't have it, should not be in the top echelon's.
Additionally, a mare carrying a double copy, and therefore should have a large heart, should be a stellar race mare and most are not.
Just the odds of it getting passed down are minimal, if it exists at all.
I can believe that some animals have a larger heart.  It does not always make them a better race horse and it does not mean it came from an X factor.
It would take someone finding a gene and then, following that through a mare's produce and analyzing their track performance.
Because this is a blog read by many people who don't know that much about horses, I cannot get behind an unproven theory. I like the idea but I'd never say it was a fact. It's a theory and that is all it can be until it is thoroughly studied.
I think we have an obligation to try and point out when we are talking about opinion (Or dearly held belief) and actual fact.  Maybe some day someone will find something.  But I'm thinking (Theory) that it would be far more complicated than any one thing.
Horsefirst 23 Oct 2010 6:40 PM
Nmh,
I don't remember making the comment or in what context.  What are you asking?  Differences in training?  Breeding?  Racetracks?
I think the biggest difference between Europeans and North Americans is our emphasis on speed.  North Americans are not interested in a 10f turf runner, while the Europeans are not interested in a 5f dirt horse.
JAJ 23 Oct 2010 8:25 PM
Dee,
All things being equal, most people prefer a bigger horse (or broodmare) but no one wants extremely big.  Buyers will severely penalize a small horse.  I prefer medium to medium big.  Big horses have a lot of problems--they are really hard to keep sound, and they are really easy to break down as babies.  It is a miracle and a credit to her trainer that Zenyatta has stayed in one piece as long as she has.
There have been quite a few very small horses who've run huge.  Northern Dancer was really small.  Although they say he was 15+ hands, I think he was under 15 hands, almost a pony.
JAJ 23 Oct 2010 8:36 PM
Dee -  Sorry but that's not what you said.
Here's your statement, "If I remember correctly and I could be thinking of someone else but isn't ONE OF THE KEY FACTORS the Jackson's consider when choosing broodmares their physical size AS OPPOSED TO THEIR ABILITY ON THE TRACK".
I took exception to that statement for various reasons, saying taking size over ability is like saying you buy a car because of the tires. Certainly if all factors were equal. ie. pedigree, conformation etc, then one might perfer size but that's not what you said. a Lot of broodmares are very productive and have never spent a day at the track but that's entirely different from  your statement.
It's been said here more than once, everyone is entitled to their opinion but accuracy and crediblity are just as important and we should be mindful of what that means.
You said it yourself and  
I quote "What I know of their behavior is only what I have learned from the blog providing us with what the Jacksons and MM have said and watching them on the computer screen".
I asked Mary to check her statements before submitting them because I didn't want to come off sounding so critical but unfortunately it didn't seem to help although at first she acknowledged what I meant.
For instances, Mary said  "Secretariat, in the Belmont, knocked two seconds off the track record". (sounded reasonable and I excepted what she said) She goes on to say "His huge heart was pumping so much oxygen into his lungs, that he didn't even take a breathe until the race was over". Huh?
First of all, that's impossible for a horse. Horses extend their front leg forward and push off with their back leg, taking a breathe as they extend and exhaling as they push off. I'm sure Kate could give a better explanation of the actual science but that's the best way I know to describe how a horse pumps oxygen enriched blood into their muscles. I'm not picking on Mary, I'm picking on what she says in her statements. Give your opinions freely, make your long held beliefs known but expect people to challenge you if something you say appears to be totally of the wall.  
As to size and the big heart, the Coach says one thing he looked for was a large neck, ie. Winning Colors. He's on tape for the Legends series talking about the long neck factor for him. A long neck in a race horse sounds reasonable, would't it allow them to take a longer breathe, hence more oxygen in their lungs and therefore maybe just a little advantage? Sounded reasonable to me and I would never question the Hall of famer, Coach. :)  
Voyager 23 Oct 2010 9:41 PM
This opinion is of course coming from a person who is NOT a SME (subject matter expert) on horses.
The first question I would ask is:
Do owners of horses ever check for large hearts in horses before they are dead?
All I've seen are reports of large hearts in racehorses after death. There might be and probably are owners who do check for this trait, but I don't believe they post the results for everyone to see.  I suspect this is in part due to other owners of thoroughbreds collecting data on said large heart horses and picking the appropriate horse to pit against them.
I am just taking a wild stab here when I say that the thoroughbred racing industry may not be all about the money, but I think I can safely say that it is probably more than 50 percent....about making money. People that own thoroughbred horses tend to zealously keep stats on their horses close to their person that might help the gambler or the other horse owner win.
And from what I've read is correct, there are so many other variables in thoroughbreds that having a large heart isn't probably going to make a horse a winner in all cases.  
Round Table whose sire was Princequillo and whose dam Knight's Daughter had Eclipse genes dangling from her manor’s chandelier, IMHO, is a prime candidate for a large heart contender.  (But do not send email as I am no expert and being a graveyard shift person I may have missed something. I also cry at the drop of a hat.) He made in his lifetime racing career per Pedigreequery.com $1,749,869 in 1954. That is mucho dinero today, let alone back then. He is considered the best turf horse EVER.
And yet any sized heart wouldn't have matter if Round Table hadn't been tutored correct, been treated nicely, been soundly assembled, fed regularly, enjoyed racing and had been reasonably cooperative to deal with, et al.
Take the sire of Barbaro, Dynaformer. All indications are that Dynaformer was a very good race horse and is an exceptional sire. IMHO, Dynaformer would have been an exceptional racehorse had he not had not one but probably 4 cranky genes.
Does anyone think that even if Dynaformer has a large heart it would have mattered at the track as Dynaformer and his trainers didn’t get along with each other even when Dynaformer was a baby? Still he did better than most.
I believe the reason the racing industry doesn’t study the X Factor more is because of the many other factors involved in having a winning horse.  And until someone funds a study on the X Factor at a reputable university, (I haven’t found one on the internet), what I am discussing now will always be conjecture and never fact.
Kathy 23 Oct 2010 10:10 PM
Mary, please stay. Blogs are for opinions. I will miss your comments if you leave.
Kathy 23 Oct 2010 10:27 PM
Kathy, you are a great writer.  Thank you.  I will stay.
Greg J, you are such a gentleman, thank you so much.  You are right, it is just a theory, like Einstein's "Theory of Relativity".  You put the concept out there, and then prove it.
I think that the large heart/performance theory began after the death of the great Australian racehorse Phar Lap.
The idea of heart size of horses as it relates to performance is not new. The first serious attempts to correlate the two traits began in the early 1950’s in Australia. Dr. James Steel, a professor of veterinary medicine at the University of Sydney worked out the "heart score" using the electrocardiogram (ECG). In a major report of his findings on 2,500 horses, Steel published convincing evidence of the relationship of heart score to racing performance.
You know, I believe that heart size is important, but I also know that there are many other factors that contribute to the making of a great racehorse.
Mary 24 Oct 2010 3:00 AM
Mary,
Thank you for making me research heart scores and the relationship between hearts, heart scores and success on the racetrack in Thoroughbreds.  I had never read any academic papers on the Thoroughbred's heart.  I did this morning.
This morning I read a LOT of CARDIOLOGY OF THE HORSE (1999) W. B. Saunders which I found on the internet through a Google search on heart scores.
Heart score is the mean duration of QRS wave in leads I, II, and III.  One study showed a strong correlation between heart score and heart mass (size of the heart) and a moderate relation between heart score and Thoroughbred earnings per start.  Other studies found the relationship between heart scores and racing performance was low.
What I found very interesting was that there was no relationship between heart scores and VO2 Max.  VO2 is the maximum capacity of an individual's body to transport and use oxygen during exercise.
A large study of heart scores of yearlings and their performance as 2 and 3 year olds found heart score was NOT predictive of racing results.  What is interesting is the heart scores and echocardiographic measurements in the 12 yearlings with the highest performance scores as 3 year olds was not significantly different from those horses who had the lowest performance ratings.
The results of these studies suggest that the use of echocardiography to predict future racing performance is not justified.  Certainly that was not the conclusion I was expecting when I started my research this morning!
So, bottom line, even if this unscientific theory (a gene on the X chromosome that regulates a large heart) proposed by a writer who has no research or science background is somehow one day and against all odds proven to be true, well, it simply doesn't make any statistical difference.
This would explain why I don't notice any emphasis put on heart scores or evaluating hearts at the yearling sales.
JAJ 24 Oct 2010 8:12 AM
Thought I'd give this a second shot as questions keep popping into my mind as I read your comments. This "x factor" that is so hotly debated - is there any connection between it and cardiomegaly (enlarged heart) that many human athletes develope? After all the heart is a muscle and will enlarge with use. Is it always determined at autopsy or can a horse be diagnosed with it before starting his racing career and the heart enlarging due to exercise, racing, etc? Just wondering - don't know a thing about it. Thanks to all for the knowledge.
Patty in PA 24 Oct 2010 12:03 PM
JAJ: the comment that you made on
10/20 at 7:34 on this blog about
there being a world of difference
between american vs european horse
racing... that was the quote that
that i was asking you to explain.
i know nothing about european
racing so was curious....
nmh 24 Oct 2010 12:40 PM
Welcome back Mary...glad you are back. Enjoy your posts a lot.
Lou in TX 24 Oct 2010 12:56 PM
nmh,
I can't find any post referring to differences between N. American and European racing on Oct. 20 around 7:34 a.m. or p.m.  Can you look again for it?  Or, ask a specific question and I'll try to answer the best I can.  I don't know that much about European racing.
JAJ 24 Oct 2010 1:00 PM
Patty in PA,
From my research this morning, it seems that the heart of a training horse is 1.1% of their body weight while an untrained horse had a heart that weighed .94% of their body weight.  If the horse weighs 1000 pound, is is the difference between a 9.4 pound heart and an 11 pound heart.  The increase in heart mass seems to happen in the first two months of training as there is no noticeable difference in the mass of hearts of horses in training 2 months or 19 months.*
I don't think this "large heart" is the result of training.
*CARDIOLOGY OF THE HORSE (1999) by W. B. Saunders
JAJ 24 Oct 2010 1:12 PM
Voyager- I agree about the importance of credibility, accuracy, and rereading what is going to be posted, but I thought "If I remember correctly and I could be thinking of someone else but isn't..." etc was sufficient enough to show that what I was saying was not a statement of fact. I try to be careful in stating what is my opinion, using i think, i feel, i see, in my opinion, etc and back that up with examples to support my opinion. You must have missed the previous blog post where I called Mary out on her stating something as fact and the issue that I had with that- unfortunately I didn't consider my words carefully enough and offended her.
It wasn't my knowledge on broodmares but was reiterating what I had heard and was looking for clarification- apparently I wasn't clear enough.
Dee 24 Oct 2010 3:15 PM
Hate to seem like I'm being picky but actually the X Factor is not a Theory, it's merely a hypothesis. Einstein's hypothesis on Relativity became a Theory when it was proven to be true.  
voyager 24 Oct 2010 5:03 PM
Kathy,
 I enjoyed reading you 10:10PM post. But I have to diagree with your over 50% of the horsemen are in the business for the money. Except for the rich owners, probably close to 100% of the trainers and jockeys are in it for the money.
 Only 52 trainers have made over $200,000 in purse money. I know they get other money from owners for caring for the horses, but they also have expences.
 Jockeys are another story. At the present time, 6 have made over $1,000,000 in purse money. And some of these even take mounts where the purse money is $12,000 - $20,000. You would think that with them already making over $1 million dollars they would have a little compassion and sympathy for the less fortunate jockeys. And let them make a little 1st place purse or mount money. These jockeys don't need to be riding $5,000 - $10,000 claimers. The little jockeys don't get to ride in large Allowance, Stake, Graded, Triple Crown, and Breeders Cup races.
 It seems the rich are never satisfied. They always want more and more money and don't care about the little people under them.
Barry 25 Oct 2010 1:46 AM
BARRY
If you wanna go the knucklehead route I'm game. You were FIRST to make the remark regarding was someone there "with a tape measure".So if you have a problem with me calling you out on your remark,that's your problem!
Mike Relva 25 Oct 2010 2:51 AM
VOYAGER
Case if you missed it,this is a democracy.
Mike Relva 25 Oct 2010 2:53 AM
Barry, Thanks for your note. I suspected the number to be higher,  but as I was unsure of the actual number, I decided on a liberally padding of the percentage just in case I was totally and completely wrong.
Kathy 25 Oct 2010 8:43 AM
Voyager,
I have been biting my tongue not to bring up the correct meaning of a scientific theory, which is not what the lay person thinks a theory means.
You are correct, a scientific "theory" is considered to be a fact.  It is not a hypothesis, which is an unproven idea, an assumption.
JAJ 25 Oct 2010 2:33 PM
Theory:
1) Set of facts in their relation to one another
2) Speculation!!!
3) General or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science
4) A belief,policy or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action
5) A plausible or scientifically accepted general principle or circumstance
6) A hypothesis
Assumed for the sake of argument-----conjecture
Ragsy 25 Oct 2010 6:00 PM
Hey, I don't mind learning the correct nomenclature.  Hypothesis is the correct term then.  How many of us say, "In theory..." when we are really thinking 'hypothetically.'
I thought Voyager handled it well.  I will try to remember to use the correct terminology. Learning is a life long process and some of us get sloppy.
Hey, if it hasn't been mentioned here before, 60 Minutes is supposed to do a piece on Zenyatta next Sunday.
And if you haven't seen this, an article on the last COLOR picture of Man O' War:
www.drf.com/.../man-o-war-final-portrait
"When he got back into the barn, Man o’ War did not want to go back into his stall. He just stood there, with his head up high, staring out the barn door down the driveway. Bub waited there a while, then turned him around and backed him into his stall."
It makes the tears come every time I read this.  Man O' War KNEW.
When you view the photo, keep in mind this is a very old horse, 30 years old, taken just before he died.
Horsefirst 25 Oct 2010 7:15 PM
Thanks Ragsy...we needed that!!!
Lou in TX 25 Oct 2010 7:43 PM
SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE:  CRITERIA FOR SCIENTIFIC STATUS
1) IT IS EASY TO OBTAIN CONFIRMATIONS OR VERIFICATIONS, FOR NEARLY EVERY THEORY--IF WE LOOK FOR CONFIRMATIONS
2)  CONFIRMATIONS SHOULD COUNT ONLY IF THEY ARE THE RESULT OF RISKY PREDICTIONS.  THAT IS TO SAY, IF, UNENLIGHTMENT BY THE THEORY IN QUESTION, WE SHOULD HAVE EXPECTED AN EVENT WHICH WAS INCOMPATAIBLE WITH THE THEORY.  AN EVENT WHICH WOULD HAVE REFUTED THE THEORY..
3)  EVERY GOOD SCIENTIFIC THEORY IS A PROHIBITION: IT FORBIDS CERTAIN THINGS TO HAPPEN.  THE MORE A THEORY FORBIDS, THE BETTER IT IS.
4)  A THEORY WHICH IS NOT REFIUTABLE BY ANY CONCEIVABLE EVENT IS NON-SCIENTIFIC, IRREFUTABILITY IS NOT A VIRTURE OF A THEORY ( AS PEOPLE OFTEN THINK) BUT IS A VISE...
5)  EVERY GENUINE TEST OF A THEORY IS AN ATTEMPT TO FALSIFY IT, OR REFUTE IT.  TESTABILITY IS FALSIABILITY, BUT THERE ARE DEGREES OF TESTIBILITY, SOME THORIES ARE MORE TESTABLE, MORE   EXPOSED TO REFUTATION, THAN OTHERS,THEY TAKE AS IT WERE GREATER RISKS...
6)  CONFIRMING EVIDENCE SHOULD NOT COUNT EXCEPT WHEN IT IS RESULT OF A GENUINE TEST OF THEORY, AND THIS MEANS THAT IT CAN BE PRESENTED AS A SERIOUS BUT UNSUCESSFUL ATTEMPT TO FALSIFY THEORY.
(CORRABORATING EVIDENCE)
7) SOME GENUINELY TESTABLE THEORIES, WHEN FOUND TO BE FALSE, ARE STILL UPHELD BY THEIR ADMIRERS. FOR EXAMPLE BY INTRODUCING AD HOC SOME AUXILIARY ASSUMPTIONS, OR BY INTERPRETING THE THEORY FROM REFUITATION ONLY AT THE PRICE OF DESTROYING OR AT LEAST LOWERING ITS SCIENTIFIC STATUS.
THE SUM OF ALL THIS IS BY SAYING THE CRITERION OF THE SCIENTIC STATUS OF A THEORY,  IS ITS TESTABILITY,FALSIFIBILITY OR REFUTABILITY....
THIS EXCERPT IS TAKEN FROM:
STEPHEN HAWKING....
IF ONE WANTED THIS COULD GO ON, AND ON, AND ON...WOULD A CONCLUSION BE REACHED, I DOUBT IT...(MY THOUGHTS ONLY!!!)
Ragsy 25 Oct 2010 8:23 PM
HEY LOU,
MAN O'WAR LOOKED SO YOUNG AS AN OLD FELLA, BARBARO IS WITH HIM AND ROCKING AROUND THE FIELD TOGETHER...I NEVER KNEW HE WAS A CHESTNUT, NEVER, HAD I SEEN A COLOR PICTURE NOR HEARD HIS COLORING...IT HAS BEEN AN HONOR READING AND SEEING HIM AS HE WAS...GOD REST HIS SPIRIT AND SOUL..
Ragsy 25 Oct 2010 8:29 PM
CARL POPPER WAS THE PERSON THAT SCIENTIFIC CRITERIA WAS TAKEN FROM AND NOT STEVEN HAWKING..WAS READING TOO MUCH FROM STEVEN HAWKINGS !!!
Ragsy 25 Oct 2010 8:46 PM
A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world.
The "Theory of Relativity" our understanding of gravity is still a work in progress. But the phenomenon of gravity, is an accepted fact.
The basic definition of "theory" is it's a hunch.
The physiology of a horse is so different than that of humans.  Whether the heart size of a horse has anything to do with performance remains to be seen.  
Mary 25 Oct 2010 8:50 PM
Ragsy,
When trying to understand/explain the meaning of something--in this case the definition of the theory as used by the scientific community--you are only muddying the waters by quoting a philosopher (Karl Popper) who spent his life working AGAINST the whole idea that things are proved using empirical data.  His views are not the generally accepted views of the scientific community.  And accidentally attributing that quote to Hawking, well, that really makes it very unclear.
And I stand by what I wrote earlier, that in the field of science there is a difference between what the lay community believes a theory to mean and what the scientific community believes it to mean.
JAJ 25 Oct 2010 10:00 PM
What a tangent we've all gotten off into!  Interesting discussions and not certain what conclusions have been reached, if any. Anyway,
back to the brothers.Nic and Len are at FHTC right now, Margano is probably in Fla.  Nicanor may have the next race coming up and soon.  Probably good to keep the momentum going.
Cal Gal 25 Oct 2010 10:29 PM
Let me give you an example of a mathematical "theory," Pythagoras' Theorem.  You all remember it from geometry--the relationship between the three sides of a right-angled triangle?  A squared plus b squared equals c squared, when c is the length of the hypotenuse?
That is a theory in the eyes of the scientific community.  I would imagine that everyone on this blog who took geometry also knows it is not a hunch, speculation or conjecture.
I think that example might help some understand how differently the scientific community defines some words that we, lay people, have a different meaning for.
JAJ 25 Oct 2010 10:29 PM
Ragsy, thank you, my friend.
Mary 25 Oct 2010 10:33 PM
Dee,
You seem like such a nice person. I thought you were very gracious
in your response to Voyager and like you I thought Voyager handled it well. My take on it was, that Voyager took exception when the statement was made about the x factor being just a theory like Einstein's Theory of Relativity.
Voyager was correct in that instance. The bridge was crossed when something that seems out there for debate was compared to a scientific fact. I believe the statement was "maybe I'm being picky" and we can all make our own minds up regarding that, never the less, Voyager was accurate.
It's kinda like my pet peeve being the word "opinion". To me, it's one of the most inaccurately used expressions, ever. Oh, well.
Not only is Zenyatta going to be on 60 Minutes this sunday but Hollywood Park has a giant poster for everone to sign, wishing her good luck. Love it!
Saw the notice of Nicanor's workout, and looks like he'll be ready soon for another race. Anyone word, Greg?  
Dona 26 Oct 2010 12:34 AM
Cal Gal agreed. I wonder what our favorite horses are up to and how they are doing.  It seems like such a long time since there was a discussion about them. My head is spinning with all this other talk.
Horsefirst, thank you for the link to Man-O-War final portrait. Animals do seem to sense when their time is nearing an end.
Mary, its nice that you decide to stay.
Penny in TX 26 Oct 2010 12:57 AM
Dona,
Thanks for letting me know about the poster. I will stop by in the next day or two.
Kathy 26 Oct 2010 8:01 AM
Horsefirst, I meant to thank you for the Man-o-War link, I loved the article. I have that picture in my den but I never knew the complete story behind it. Isn't the internet wonderful, giving us access to all this wonderful history?
Dona 26 Oct 2010 8:54 AM
JAJ,
Curious, are you going to be at Woodbine this Sunday?  Check out the nominations for the $100,000 Labeeb Stakes.  A good chance you will get to see Nicanor up close :)
Greg J. 26 Oct 2010 11:30 AM
Mary, I am glad you stayed  I would have missed ya!
A theory is a collection of concepts which may or not be proven,  There are numerous theory's  and some mighty good philosophers were Galileo,Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein.
Steven Hawkings, a genius, had to change a physics theory last year in relation to black holes......things change, it may takes years to determine what is true and not true in some cases..
His new book "The Grand Design,"
the book outlines Hawking's theory to describe and explain the forces of nature...came out this past September2010..great read...
Ragsy 26 Oct 2010 12:08 PM
All this discussion about theory etc. is very intersting but it seems you all need to start another blog. Could we PLEASE get back to the subject of this blog "Tracking Barbaro's Brothers"!!! I'm really tired of all this other stuff.
Horsefirst...thank you about the info on Man O' Way.  He was definitly a good looking horse. He sure didn't look 30 in his pic.
Rasgy...glad you got your barn all fixed up and you have such nice people around you.
Greg...do you really think Nicanor will be racing on the 31st at Woodbine?
Lou in TX 26 Oct 2010 12:37 PM
What are our "boys" doing?
Linda/Maryland 26 Oct 2010 8:39 PM
Linda,
I would guess they are probably getting some shut-eye at this hour ;)
Greg J. 26 Oct 2010 8:56 PM
Sleep, silent angels, go to sleep.  
Mary 26 Oct 2010 9:05 PM
Greg J,
No, I won't be going--I sure wish I were!  Although I'm a Canadian, I live in the US very far from Toronto.  I try to fly in for my horses' big races.  (And at the moment I don't have a horse in training other than my yearling--I sold my 4yo and my 3yo was injured.)  My trainer has a horse entered in that race, too--I'm really, really sorry I won't be there.
I'm glad Matz is shortening Nicanor up--I've been getting the feeling that a mile would be a good distance for him, maybe even as short as 7f.
The Woodbine turf has a one-turn mile, so it will be pretty quick if the turf is firm.  The turf course is on the outside of the main track so the horses fly down the stretch right in front of you, even closer if the rail is out.  There is nothing like a turf race right in front your face!  The turf course has an incredibly long stretch.
Are you going?  If so make reservations for lunch at Favourites.  Try to get a window table.  They have a really great buffet. If you haven't gone to Woodbine before, you really should.  They are doing a great job for the sport.
JAJ 26 Oct 2010 10:12 PM
Do it Kathy, and then look up at the top, near the center and you'll see where Mikey signed it and wrote "God Bless".
Saw where Rosie will be riding Martita Sangrita again this saturday at Belmont. Maybe she's going to be the filly's regular rider now. Hope she rides for Lael more often.
Dona 26 Oct 2010 11:39 PM
Real funny Greg, guess that is where I am headed, nighty night all!
Penny in TX 27 Oct 2010 12:00 AM
Yes, Lou your right, I cant wait to hear more on Nicanor and this possible race..then back to the lovely Lentenor..he might have been seventh in his last race but when he matures,  fill's out more gains that confidence he will be an awesome Dynaformer.
Yes, Lou those people are something else...
Ragsy 27 Oct 2010 12:55 PM
Is there a link to the Woodbine race?  Looked and couldn't find one.
More on Zenyatta plus her connections:
sportsillustrated.cnn.com/.../index.htm
"On April Fool's Day 2004, Vertigineux dropped a dark-bay baby on the ground at Winter Quarter Farm in Lexington. This was the horse that Team Moss saw in Barn 28 at Keeneland, a gangly child with a terrible skin rash. "She was rangy, but very well-balanced," says David Ingordo. Dottie Ingordo-Shirreffs already loved Kris S, Vertigineux's papa, as a broodmare sire. And when the Mosses visited, the baby laid her head on Ann's shoulder, sealing the deal."
Some of them really do KNOW.
Horsefirst 27 Oct 2010 4:31 PM
That was a lovely article and it was nice to see how similar John Shireff's training philosophy is to Michael's.  She has great owners, too!
Cal Gal 27 Oct 2010 5:42 PM
HorseFirst,
You can see any Woodbine race shortly after it is run on Woodbine's YouTube Channel:
www.youtube.com/.../WEGReplays
Thanks for the link to the Sports Illustrated article on Zenyatta.
For all you Zenyatta fans, Blood-Horse is putting out a Zenyatta commemorative issue after the Breeders Cup.  It is free in the November 20th issue, but if you order is separately ($9.95 free shipping in US) you will get an 8x10 photo of the cover shot.  Even though I'll get it free in the magazine, I want that photo so ordered it.
I hope all racing fans can appreciate just what a great racing mare she is.  Not only is she one of the all-time greats, but she is an incredible soul.  We will never see a horse like her again.  I hope the Moss' don't retire her until it is physically in her best interests to do so.  She loves what she does too much.
www.bloodhorse.com/.../zenyatta-special-commemorative-collectors-issue
JAJ 27 Oct 2010 5:58 PM
Mary, i am also glad you stayed, I would have missed you!
Horsefirst, Thank you for the article on Man of War. This story could surely bring a tear any horselovers eye!
Greg, any news on what time Nicky will be running?
Lots of luck, sweet Nicky!
sandieh 27 Oct 2010 6:07 PM
Horsefirst,
Regarding Nicanor racing at Woodbine this Sunday, there is no link yet, entries will be made official tomorrow.  Once they are released, I will post a new blog entry looking at the race, including photos from Nicanor's victory at Belmont Park on September 24.
Here is a link that shows the 28 nominations for the $100,000 Labeeb Stakes, to be run this Sunday (October 31st) at Woodbine, one mile on the turf:
www.woodbineentertainment.com/.../2010%20Labeeb%20Stakes.pdf
Greg J. 27 Oct 2010 7:39 PM
Thanks Greg!  Looks like Matz has two horses entered.
Horsefirst 27 Oct 2010 8:03 PM
Horsefirst...Thanks for the link on Zenyatta.  She is quite a "Queen." Hope she shows the boys up in the BC.
Lou in TX 27 Oct 2010 9:22 PM
Thanks Gregg!
I should be in bed myself at this hour, but it's the only time I have to check up on the boys and the blog seemed to be getting sidetracked. I am so glad to hear Nic may me running Sunday~!!!
Pics will be WONDERFUL~!!!
Linda/Maryland 27 Oct 2010 11:46 PM
HorseFirst,
Woodbine posts their races shortly after they are run on their dedicated YouTube channel.
www.youtube.com/user/WEGReplays
Thanks for the Sports Illustrated link for the story on Zenyatta and her connections.
She is such an amazing horse, and not just as a racehorse.  I hope she doesn't retire, she just loves it too much.  As long as she is not compromised physically, I think she couldn't be happier doing anything else.
Blood-Horse is coming out with a commemorative issue November 20.  It will be bound in the magazine, so free to subscribers, but you can also buy it for $9.95.  When you buy it (free shipping in the US), it will come with an 8 x 10 photo.  Even though I'm a subscriber, I ordered an extra copy--I want the picture!
Here is the link:
www.bloodhorse.com/special-products/products/1/zenyatta-special-commemorative-collectors-issue?utm_source=bloodhorse&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=BH-ZEN
JAJ 28 Oct 2010 7:09 AM
I should have made it more clear in my previous post, the commemorative issues is all about Zenyatta.
JAJ 28 Oct 2010 12:17 PM
Call 1 800.582.5604 to obtain the commemorative issues about the Queen of Horse Racing: ZENYATTA
it's really easy...
Horsefirst I say thank you for the information on Zenyatta too....
Ragsy 28 Oct 2010 1:09 PM
Horsefirst, I meant to also thank you for the Man O' War article but so thrilled to see the color photo that I did not...Thanks!!!
Ragsy 28 Oct 2010 1:16 PM
FYI,
It's official, Nicanor is entered this Sunday in the $100,000 Labeeb Stakes at Woodbine.  A field of thirteen will be going the one mile distance on the turf.  Nicanor will be reunited with Rosie Napravnik for the race, race #5, post time 2:57.
I will have a new blog up tomorrow looking at the race.
Godspeed Nicanor...
Greg J. 28 Oct 2010 3:05 PM
Yeah!  Let's hope the Nic/Rosie combination enters the winner circle again!!  Go Nicanor!!!
Deby 28 Oct 2010 4:16 PM
Hot Dog, Nicanor is back with Rosie now, this will be interesting too see.....Thanks GregJ....
Ragsy 28 Oct 2010 5:04 PM
Nicanor, good luck on your race Sunday.  Hopefully it will be a safe and winning combination.
Penny in TX 28 Oct 2010 5:49 PM
YEA!!!!!! ROSIE IS BACK ON NICANOR!!!   Hope the two can win together again. Have been hoping against hope for her to ride him again. Going to be a busy Sunday, first Nicanor, then the Cowboy game :( and then the Rangers :).  A Halloween I'll never forget.  Oh yes, my Grandkids will be here to Trick or Treat.  What a Sunday to look forward to. Can't wait!
Thanks Greg for the info. Looking forward to your new blog on our boy Nicanor.
Lou in TX 28 Oct 2010 6:19 PM
Lou, it will be a busy Sunday.  I didn't think about all that was happening and then to have Halloween on top of that.
Hopefully, Nicanor, Rangers and Cowboys will all win, but I will go for 2 out of 3!!
Penny in TX 28 Oct 2010 7:27 PM
O.K. Penny -- you can have the Cowboys and Nicanor (I want Nicanor, too!) but I am rooting big time for The Giants!  GO GIANTS!!!
Cal Gal 28 Oct 2010 7:38 PM
Ok Lou and Penny,  I hope you guys get exactly what your hoping for...wonder if HRTV or TVG will replay Nic's race?
Ragsy 28 Oct 2010 7:53 PM
Ragsy,
TVG should have Nicanor's race live, post time is about 2:57.
Greg J. 28 Oct 2010 7:54 PM
Safety Zone and So Elite are the two horses I'm worried about.  From Post 2, Nicanor should do very well here, he'll save a lot of ground.  I can't see him losing, but then what do I know.
Mary 28 Oct 2010 9:26 PM
YAY NICANOR!  GOOD! GOOD! Good! Luck on Sunday.  As always be careful out there.  Run swiftly but safely.  We're all rooting for you no matter what happens.
there's a lot of folks here rooting for you no matter what happens.
Zowie 28 Oct 2010 9:31 PM
Penny in TX....I think I'll choose the Ranger and Nicanor.  The Cowboys have gone south for the season.
Cal Gal...why would you root for the Rangers?  You're a Callie girl!
You know they say who ever wins the first game usually wins the series but I can't give up on the Rangers just yet. They are a young bunch and don't know what quit means. You do know I was kidding you about a Callie girl, didn't mean it in a mean spirited manner. Was laughing reading your post.
Yea!! TVG will carry it live. Thank goodness. Ragsy, we can watch it.
Lou in TX 28 Oct 2010 9:39 PM
Bonjour Lentenor,
So sorry that you lost your last race but keep practicing and you will eventually win a stakes race, and you will be off and running from there.
Good luck in your next race.
Lots of love to you, Nicanor, and Margano.
Lise from Maine 28 Oct 2010 10:42 PM
Good luck Nicanor.  I hope you can maintain your speed for a mile.
Here's a sneak peak at the 60 Minute Zenyatta piece.  This is mostly Mike Smith:
www.cbs.com/.../video
Horsefirst 28 Oct 2010 10:47 PM
Bonjour Nicanor,
I will be watching your race on Sunday October 31st on TVG; Direct TV does not have HRTV yet.
I hope and pray that you win. I will be shouting for you to "get going" or "hurry it up." Maybe I won't need to do that afterall.
I am so eager to see you race, Nicanor.
Good luck my dear boy!
Lots of love and kisses to you, Lentenor, and Margano.
Lise from Maine 28 Oct 2010 10:47 PM
Hi!
Those photos of Lentenor are gorgeous.
Thank you for sharing them with your audience.
Lise from Maine 28 Oct 2010 10:52 PM
Real cute Cal Gal, Lou knew exactly who I meant.  I will say this though, the Giants have the game tonight, but we will come back. I have Direct TV, does anyone know if TVG is available on Direct?  
Penny in TX 28 Oct 2010 10:55 PM
LOU IN TX.
Oh yeah, all this talk about theroy should cease but you can talk about the Rangers (like everybody should care - NOT), your grandkids, Ragsy's barn! That's the problem with intolerant people, they can't see the forest for the trees. I personally don't care what you talk unless you put it out there like it's cast in stone. Not being brain dead, I know a theory is not " basically a hunch".  BIG DIFFERENCE ! Not by any stretch of the imagination are the two words similar.  Tsk, tsk, for an English Major not to know that!
Mike Relva, You said this is a democracy. Your point? Oh,I forgot. You don't make points, you just make a comment on someone else's contribution.
Like everyone else, I'm here because of the Barbaro Brothers. I want to learn everything I can about them and what's going in their world. I just take an exception when someone goes astray with the truth/facts. Contrary to what some people think, if you state an opinion and people disagree, you shold be able to debate and defend that opinon, rationally.
I have tried to find out why Lentenor isn't posting workouts.
Is there anything out that that explains his absence.
Good luck Rosie on Martita Sangria and most of all, best ever good luck on Nicanor.
Voyager 28 Oct 2010 10:58 PM
Mary, I agree, post 2 is a good spot for him. If he breaks well, I would think that his speed will carry him right to the front and he wont have to use as much early speed to get there. I haven't had a chance to look at the rest of the field, but I definitely like his chances at this distance and with Rosie.
Dee 28 Oct 2010 11:11 PM
Voyager,
Regarding Lentenor not posting any workouts.  It has only been twelve days since his race, typically, Lentenor doesn't have a work until at least two weeks since his prior race.  No need to worry, he is fine...
Penny,
DIRECTV does carry TVG, since I cannot make Nicanor's race on Sunday, I will be watching TVG on my DIRECTV  :)
Good Luck to Martita Sangrita tomorrow at Belmont Park!  Martita is racing in the Topicount Stakes, race #8 with Rosie Napravnik aboard.  Martita is trained by Mr. Matz and will be wearing the LAEL silks, Good Luck !
Greg J. 28 Oct 2010 11:35 PM
Good luck to Nicanor. And like Greg would say, you can take him winning to the bank.
Greg, any news on Margano and the sex of the baby that La Ville Rouge is carrying ?
Barry 28 Oct 2010 11:41 PM
Thanks Greg, I was worried because I haven't been able to find any comments by Mr Matz about Lentenor's performance and how he fared after the race.
Thank you Horsefirst for that appetizer from CBS.  
Voyager 29 Oct 2010 1:26 AM
Penny in TX...Direct TV has TVG it's #602. Check your menu and you should find it.
Voyager
Your true colors are showing. Better be nice or some people on this site won't be nice about you attacking people. You can attack me all you want but we do have friends on this site and if Greg didn't think what we are posting was appropiate then he would DELETE it. Hope you have a nice day.
Lou in TX 29 Oct 2010 1:51 AM
GregJ  Thanks for that information.
Hey Lou, Thanks,  good to hear ya..
Breeders Cup countdown....go Zenyatta!!!
Nicanor here is one big wish for you! Win,Place or Show....if not, thats ok too....what a georgous horse...
Ragsy 29 Oct 2010 9:21 AM
Lou in TX,
Give me a break.  Voyager has brought up some very relevant points.  You respond by veiled threats?
Debates are healthy ways of differing viewpoints being presented.  However, if someone is presenting unproven mumbo jumbo as fact, people like me and Voyager are going to ask to see the proof.
JAJ 29 Oct 2010 9:51 AM
Hi!
I just ordered two (2) Zenyatta Commemorative Collector's issue, and thanks so much for providing the phone number on this forum so
I could accomplish that as I do not place any orders by internet.
I actually want the free 8 x 10 photo of her so I can purchase a gold Victorian frame (bought one issue for a friend)to enclose it.
I am eager to receive them, and hope that Zenyatta wins her final race at the Breeder's Cup.
Thank you!
Lise from Maine 29 Oct 2010 10:33 AM
Thanks Lou and Greg for the info about Direct TV.  Lou, I always enjoy hearing from you.
Any word on how Margano is doing and how he is progressing with his training?
Penny in TX 29 Oct 2010 11:16 AM
JAJ...I posted no threat to Voyager in any shape form or fashion. Just speaking the truth. As you should know. I have nothing against people speaking their minds as long as it is done in a nice and friendly way.
Lou in TX 29 Oct 2010 12:16 PM
Lou in TX, the best thing to do is not respond to these people.  They are simply bullies, innate I guess, and that is not going to change no matter how nice you try to be.
The scientific definition of "theory" versus the common definition is completely different.  Move on please.
I am sorry that they are treating you this way.  
Mary 29 Oct 2010 2:29 PM
LOU in TX,
Now, let me get this straight. I point out that you complained about the "theory" posts saying "Could we please get back to the subject of this blog, Tracking Barbaro's Brothers !!! I'm against all this other stuff.
Then you post about Ragsy's barn-
Oct. 28th 6.19, you talk about Halloween, the Rangers and your Grandkids.
oct. 28th 9:39 Again, posting about the Rangers.
So, kindly explain how the Rangers, Haloween and Ragsy's barn relate to "Tracking Barbaro's Brothers".
You say my true colors are showing. Well, I take that to mean I did a good job pointing out something that appeared to be just a little mendacious.
You seemed to have ignored the part where I said "I" personally don't care what you post about unless it derails on the truth train!
Yes, your post of Oct. 29th was a threat. Perhaps you didn't realize it but you later said you were just speaking the truth.
Truth is, if someones points out inconsistencies, that's not attacking anybody. Why is that so difficult for people to grasp.
I found your remark about the "theory" posts to be very intolerant, to say the least. You want to threaten me? Trust me, I don't take threats lightly.
Voyager 29 Oct 2010 3:22 PM
Lou in TX,
I'm sorry, but I disagree.  You did threaten Voyager.  You used phrases like, "better be nice or some people on this site..."  That's a threat.  I didn't think Voyager said anything that was anything approaching offensive.  Strongly worded perhaps, but I can certainly appreciate what he was saying.
JAJ 29 Oct 2010 4:01 PM
Mary and Ragsy,
I am tired of your suggesting I am a bully simply because I disagree, sometimes very strongly, with what you have insisted was a scientific fact when in fact it is pure rubbish.  Only once have I been slightly out of line when I corrected Mary for not once but three times misspelling chromosome in a post where she was lecturing on genetics.  (The irony of it was too much for me to ignore.)
I have argued the facts, not the character of a person who disagrees with me, which is something you both seem incapable of doing.
I am not a bully.
I put a lot of effort into this blog to help those who don't have any hands-on experience with race horses get an understanding of just what is going on before, during and after the race.  I do this because I love the sport.  I want you all to understand what you see and read between the lines of what is being said.
How much have you learned courtesy of me?  And you thank me by calling me a bully?
You both owe me an apology.
JAJ 29 Oct 2010 4:12 PM
Lou
You and Mary are correct, don't listen to ugly!
Mary,  of course the definition is different, thats why one needs to know which theory one is talking about there are too many out there...it's good that you are still here....
MMatz and  Marita Sang? how ever spelled is 2nd in her race by a nostril..good race...
Ragsy 29 Oct 2010 5:00 PM
OK, enough already!
This is getting to be insane,  did everyone forget what this blog is supposed to be about?  I am pretty sure we all come here for the same reasons, can we please get back to what this blog is about?  Thank you...
Greg J. 29 Oct 2010 6:55 PM
Hey,  Thank you GregJ,
Sometimes you need to set the record straight....Your right, it's all about the "BROTHERS"
whom I love !! Can we stick with them in the future...and yes, it is bordering on insanity...
Ragsy 29 Oct 2010 7:15 PM
I just got home and found TVG on my DirectTV. I feel rather silly that I never knew I had it. Sad thing is that I am not a knew customer to Direct TV, I had it 10 plus years. Thank you Lou and Greg for pointing me in the right direction. Now I can join everyone in watching one of our favorite horses race, among others.
Penny in Tx 29 Oct 2010 7:34 PM
Enough already!!! If you can't say anything helpful, constructive or nice or even something about our "boys", I'll tell you what so help me I will open a blog just for you folks  so you  will quit driving people away from this site and  it can go back to being what it was meant to be, a place for all of us to chat about Barbaro's brothers.
Zowie 29 Oct 2010 8:23 PM
JAJ
Do you even hear what you're saying? That you actually fancy yourself as some kind of instructor. Who died and made you God on this blog? Word of advice,don't quit your day job! BTW, you must be the only living being that's never had a spelling error,right?
Mike Relva 29 Oct 2010 8:32 PM
JAJ
What Lou said wasn't a threat.
Mike Relva 29 Oct 2010 8:35 PM
VOYAGER
My point? Meaning that just cause you disagree with some on this blog,they STILL have the same rights as you to express their opinions. Glad I could dumb it down for you.
Mike Relva 29 Oct 2010 8:43 PM
There is a beautiful small horse farm for sale near my home in Virginia.I dreamed I bought the farm and I saw Barbaro running in the fields, a sweet Angel so strong and graceful.
This blog has been our way to keep open communication with updates on Barbaro and his Brothers. In addition we are able to see what is going on with other wonderful horses and to watch their development.I love to be able to read the comments from everyone here, but PLEASE, let us respect each other. This is a privilege provided to us by Bloodhorse and Greg.
May Nicky run with the spirits of our Equine Angels keeping him safe! Loads of love, carrots, mints to all the Brothers!  
sandieh 29 Oct 2010 8:43 PM
Greg...good luck with your rewrite. I'm definitely looking forward to it. Can't wait to read your opinion on Nicanor's competition.
Lou in TX 29 Oct 2010 8:59 PM
SANDIEH
I recall a few months back saying I had visited The Tin Man. Was in CA again last week and went by again to visit. He enjoys as many mints as he can get. lol He's doing well.
Mike Relva 29 Oct 2010 9:10 PM
Thanks Mike for the support. I really wasn't threating Voyager but just trying to let them know that someone on this blog might get nasty if they didn't agree with what they said. I wasn't threatening them at all. Just trying to give a heads-up. Sorry some people took it that way. I'm not that kind of person.
Hopefully Greg got his point over.
I, for one, am very excited about Nicanor's race on Sunday. Can't wait for Greg's new post tomorrow. And more pictures!!! YEA!!
Lou in TX 29 Oct 2010 9:54 PM
I'm an attorney, I don't know a thing about science.  This needs to stop, right here, right now.    This all started over the definition of "theory".  JAJ, in the beginning I did learn a lot from you.
I do believe that my beautiful Nicanor will win his race on Sunday.  I thought about flying up to Canada, but not enough notice to do that.  Maybe next time.
Mary 29 Oct 2010 10:19 PM
JAJ, Lou's comments were not a threat at all, your comments, not nice.
Mary 29 Oct 2010 10:51 PM
LOU in TX
I have no doubt what you're saying is true. Some invent drama as a vehicle to add a change of pace to their dull everyday world. Sad.
Mike Relva 30 Oct 2010 12:36 AM
Mike Relva,
I am offended with your remark to Voyager "Glad I could dumb it down for you".
Voyager asked what's your point and frankly I didn't get it either, since you didn't specify what you were talking about. Just saying this is a democracy could mean many things. Your comment to Voyager was totally uncalled for. Up until now, I would have thought that was beneath you.
Dona 30 Oct 2010 1:18 AM
JAJ,
Of course it was a "thinly veiled threat" as you said earlier and thank you for speaking out. That's something that should not be tolerated. Isn't it funny, the people that cry "bully" are the very ones doing it. I think that's ironic. Also, I think both you and Voyager are facing a losing battle; after reading the comments made by various people it seems to be more a matter of comprehension than content.
Having thrown my two cents in, back to more pressing matters.
Rosie's ride on Martita Sangria was totally awesome and this team of horse and rider deserved to win. I had no idea Rosie was such a strong rider. I knew she was a good rider but her finishing drive on Martita was as strong as any I have ever seen. Great ride, too bad they barely missed. Good luck with Nicanor, Rosie.
Dona 30 Oct 2010 1:49 AM
Oh please guys.. stay just calm. Be kind.
There's no need to battle each other at all. This is about Nicanor, Lentenor and Margano and of course the Jacksons and Mr. Matz who are great horsemen (and woman).
Seems to be a very nice weekend für the Jacksons already.. with their horses Martita Sangrita and Senada being 2nd ans 3rd in the Topicount and Storm On The Moon 2nd in his AoC race (anyone knows whether he was claimed by s.o.?).
I look forward to Gregs post of Nicanors race.
Think he should win that, but what do I know.. :')
My thoughts will be with our beloved boy tomorrow.
Sarah 30 Oct 2010 9:06 AM
I have great faith in Rosie.  She is racing on the turf once on Saturday and then has three mounts on Sunday that being said her only other turf race is our boy Nic and then two on "the dirt".  If you saw her race at Belmont yesterday on Margarita it was a fantastic race and photo finish just coming up a nose short of 1st.  She knows her business and will give our boy a great ride.  Go Nic with fingers and toes crossed.
lobieb 30 Oct 2010 9:13 AM
Mike Relva, wish I could give Tin Man some mints! Good to hear that he is doing well. Tin Man had a strong first place finish in a race around nine years old, very impressive horse!
Ragsy and Lou, Everyone, our boy Nicky is running Sunday, let's all cheer Nicky home safe!
Greg, will you be there? I am happy that we have you to take such beautiful pictures!
How is Margano? He must be a big boy now! (this is fun and enjoyable, we have 2 on the tracks, 1 in school and 1 on the way) May LaVille Rouge and Baby2B be blessed with good health! Love to all!  
sandieh 30 Oct 2010 10:20 AM
DONA
Sorry you feel that way,but did you read the remark he made to me? Dona,when I was in college one of my friends(who later became a very successful lawyer) always said"the door swings both ways". Many don't like it when they are put in the position to play defense.
Mike Relva 30 Oct 2010 11:26 AM
Sandieh
Its good to see you back again...Nicky's race Sunday this sounds like 4,11,13 and 2- Nick has raced Tybolt before with Rosie, now Rosie is on Nick...  Seems there is alot of talent in this race ..I need to look at this field of horses again... you betcha, we will cheer them on Sunday....
Ragsy 30 Oct 2010 11:29 AM
does anyone know what la ville
rouge is expecting?  i would
love to see a filly... she could
turn out to be another zenyatta...
nmh 30 Oct 2010 11:36 AM
Mike,
I know what your saying but I'm not comfortable when something gets personal. I love a good debate, by the same token, I expect somebody to come back at me with facts, figures or information. I expect that at all times and like most people, make judgements about someone based on their response. As I said, I didn't understand your statment because I thought you meant it's a free Country and people can say whatever they want. You say, you meant they are free to give an opinion, which is of course totally true. However, if they do so, they should be able to explain the meaning, debate it's merit and let the facts speak for themselves. Or take their lumpes when it's proven inaccurate, learn from the experience and go from there.
My take on Voyager's statement was this: maybe Voyager thought you jumped in but didn't elobrate. However, you're right, that was a snide remark by Voyager. I was disappointed because I've known you to respond on a higher level.
I don't know Voyager, so my analysis was based solely on what was posted.
Dona 30 Oct 2010 1:37 PM
DONA
I've always liked your posts,you write w/  flair. Respect what you're expressing.
Mike Relva 30 Oct 2010 5:48 PM
Hi, I love these posts, but I really wish you would follow through. I want to say thanks for letting us know WHEN he's racing, but it seems like you never update to say how he did.
Still, I love coming on here and hearing how they're doing. Keep up the good work!
Alyssa 27 Dec 2010 10:07 AM

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