Just to clarify a few things up front, Nicanor did not bleed during his last race, and both brothers came out of their respective races in fine shape.
Lentenor and Nicanor both had their first works since those races this past week. Nicanor worked four furlongs on the dirt track at Fair Hill in :49.60 seconds, listed as “breezing.” He was fourth out of eight that worked. Lentenor worked the same distance/same track in 50 seconds flat, also listed as “breezing,” and was sixth out of the eight that worked that morning. I would expect, if a race fits either brother, to see both in a race very soon, maybe in the next couple of weeks. It would be nice if they were at Belmont Park, for completely selfish reasons, since that is the closest track to me.
Lentenor’s race on the 24th of August was, IMO, a very good race for his first start since the Florida Derby on March 20th. When arriving at the track, as usual, he looked stunning. He appeared to be in perfect shape and seemed to have his game face on. He does seem more focused than Nicanor, more business-like, and he seems to know what his job is. While being saddled by Mr. Matz, he was very calm and seemed to be excited to be back at the track. It was nice to see the Jacksons and Peter Brette in the paddock area for Lentenor’s return to the track.
As for the race itself, all in all, it was a good race for Lentenor to get under his belt. He broke perfectly, showed good speed going into the first turn, and rated nicely in a stalking position in second. He was cruising nicely down the backstretch, but when coming for home he got squeezed and had to hold up, then re-rally for the finish. He placed third, a little over a length behind the winner, Inauguration, with Rosie Napravnik aboard. After watching the head-on after I got home, it was quite clear that he could not possibly have gone between the colts to his left and right. Jose Valdivia Jr. did a good job holding him up and getting Lentenor to wait and re-rally for his third place finish. He showed good speed, and I loved how he handled the shorter distance. I am under the impression that after his lay-off he needed this race to get racing fit. After the race, it was quite funny - it seemed like he wanted to go to the winner’s circle and acted frustrated that Eduardo led him past it. All in all, a very good return for Lentenor. I fully expect him to get into the winner’s circle in his next race.
Now, about the enigma that is Nicanor. I say that with complete respect to him as he is a hard one to figure out! Just like his little brother, he arrived at the track looking impeccable. As usual, he seemed aggravated getting saddled up, which is the norm for Nicanor. Once again, the Jacksons were on hand in the paddock, and they also had Ready Set in the race (the eventual winner).
In Nicanor’s race, the start was typical for him. He broke fast and went straight to the lead. Hugo, with Jeremy Rose aboard, flew by Nicanor before the first turn, which I believe was when Nicanor lost any chance of winning this race. Nicanor seems to be very stubborn, and if he doesn’t have the lead, forget about it. This is not ideal, especially running on the turf, but it is what it is. Nicanor fought the jockey after getting passed, and that ended up costing him come stretch time. He did seem to rate down the backstretch in a stalking position but just had nothing left coming down the stretch. Ready Set, with Brian Hernandez Jr. on board, ran the race of his life and just got up for the victory, setting a new track record. Ready Set, wearing the Lael colors and trained by Ronny Werner, won for the fifth time in 27 starts, putting his career earnings at $731,029.
What is the answer for Nicanor? Your guess is as good as mine. It was only his tenth career start, so Mr. Matz still has time to figure him out, certainly much better than I can. Should he be in shorter races? A jockey change? Back to wearing blinkers? Only time will tell.
Finally, I would be remiss if I didn’t bring this up. When I arrived home from Delaware, I noticed that Mr. Ray Paulick had written an editorial on the brothers. While I have the utmost respect for Mr. Paulick, I could not have disagreed more with what he wrote. The title was, “Nicanor & Lentenor: Just Let Them Be.” To summarize, he said that it is “time to move on” and “to simply let them be horses,” that there are other horses out there to follow and, “Maybe his younger brothers will perform better without the added pressure.” This was written by the same person who, after Lentenor broke his maiden three races ago, had a headline on his website that read, “Lentescore! Barbaro’s brother breaks turf maiden at Gulfstream.” His first line was, “For all you Barbaro fans, we wanted to give you the opportunity to cheer on the next full brother of Barbaro after he broke his maiden at Gulfstream Park today.” Then he included a link to the story on Bloodhorse.com. Well, Mr. Paulick, you cannot have it both ways. How can you promote Lentenor then three races later say it is time to move on? Also, those three races were a second place finish to Double’s Partner, a fourth place finish in the Florida Derby, then, after a five month lay-off, his third place finish in his August 24th race.
Contradiction Mr. Paulick? I think so. Mr. Paulick says the brothers will perform better without the added pressure. I didn’t know that Lentenor and Nicanor read this blog, or that they were or are aware of the so-called pressure the fans put on them. If so, they are more intelligent than I give them credit for. My sincere apologies to both brothers! The sport needs all the fans it can get, Mr. Paulick, and to say fans that follow the brothers should move on and support others is a reflection perhaps of your not knowing them very well. I honestly believe the fans of the brothers are capable of doing both. To take it a step farther, I know they do!
Finally, I will agree with Mr. Paulick when he said fans might put their energies toward both the Barbaro Fund and the Grayson Jockey Club Research Foundation, which I have provided links for. However, the fans of the brothers have been supporting equine causes for years, some before the Barbaro tragedy, others starting in 2006 when Barbaro was fighting for his life. They generously continue to do so to this day, considering their contributions to be part of Barbaro’s Legacy.
Link to Penn Vet Laminitis Institute, Barbaro Fund:
http://www.vet.upenn.edu/PennVet/News/Barbaro/tabid/849/Default.aspx
Link to the Grayson Jockey Club Research Foundation:
http://www.grayson-jockeyclub.org/aboutDisplay.asp
Just to add, it looks like Lentenor’s next race will be at Delaware Park on September 25 in the $250,000 Grade III Kent Stakes at a distance of 1 1/8 miles on the turf. As far as Nicanor’s next race, stay tuned.
216 Comments:
If the photographs of both Nicanor and Lentenor are any indication, they are both lean, mean, fighting machines. Michael Matz just needs to figure out how to make them win. I believe they are both capable.I've always said this.
In one of Lentenor's photo's he has that look as if he is saying, "Oh hi Greg. I'm a little nervous"
And in one of Nicanor's photo's it is like he is saying, "Oh, hi Greg, yes, it is I, Nicanor."
Is it me or does Nicanor look bigger than Lentenor?
In one of Lentenor's photo's he has that look as if he is saying, "Oh hi Greg. I'm a little nervous"
And in one of Nicanor's photo's it is like he is saying, "Oh, hi Greg, yes, it is I, Nicanor."
Is it me or does Nicanor look bigger than Lentenor?
Victories would be nice, but they are both safe and healthy. I'm happy with that.
Thank you Greg for the update on Nicanor and Lentenor. It was well worth the wait. You are right in that they both look great. Very well groomed. I also appreciated your comment about Mr Paulick's latest report. Very well thought out and concise as to the facts plus very humorous to boot! Just one more comment; that one pic of Lentenor after the race with his head turned made me chuckle a bit a he looked to me like he was saying, "Hey, I should be in the winners circle". Hopefully he will be on the 25th.
thank you for the report on the boys and for the great pictures..
however i think one of the reasons
they don't win often is because of
the time off between races.. its
was 5 months between lenny's last 2
races and longer with nick... horses such as "big red" ran every
few weeks sometimes more often..the
reports are that they come out of
their races in great shape so why
the big gap between races....
however i think one of the reasons
they don't win often is because of
the time off between races.. its
was 5 months between lenny's last 2
races and longer with nick... horses such as "big red" ran every
few weeks sometimes more often..the
reports are that they come out of
their races in great shape so why
the big gap between races....
that photo of Lentenor turning as if to say -- "Hey you missed where I am supposed to go. Let's go back." is what he did at Aqueduct, isn't it.
Lentenor is taller than Nicanor but Nic is more muscular, according to someone who knows them both very well.
Regarding Nicanor, let him have the lead if he wants it and put the whip away. Fighting with him and hitting him are counter-productive with this horse.
Lentenor is taller than Nicanor but Nic is more muscular, according to someone who knows them both very well.
Regarding Nicanor, let him have the lead if he wants it and put the whip away. Fighting with him and hitting him are counter-productive with this horse.
Always fun to read your take on the day(s)! Love the pictures you captured of a very relaxed Nic before Hugo blasted by and then you caught the couple of strides where he threw his head up and fought Jose--tells a whole story right there. So funny about Lentenor wanting to go in the winner's circle--he did that at Aqueduct too, didn't he?! He knows where he wants to be--hopefully next time! Wonderful entry--thanks for all the great pictures.
Way to go Greg! Great article great pictures. Thanks for backing the FOBS!.
Maybe Nicanor is just taking after his daddy more as he gets older. There is a reason most of the Dynaformer males get gelded. If you look at Dynaformer's race record, it's not spectacular. What sets him apart is his descendants race records. Even if they don't get Nicanor figured out, he is one of just a few Dynaformer males capable of carrying on the bloodline and that makes him potentially valuable. They do both look dead fit. Maybe they should try Nicanor over the jumps - Dynaformer is the leading sire of steeplechasers.
Excellent article and pictures GregJ.
The Brothers both look stunning, well built and groomed to a T...cant wait to see them both win another race...I too thought Mr.R.Paulick's article rather offensive... thank you!!
Anyone watch the Keeneland sales, that AP Indy colt was one good looking baby that went for 4.2million!!!cant wait to see him run...
The Brothers both look stunning, well built and groomed to a T...cant wait to see them both win another race...I too thought Mr.R.Paulick's article rather offensive... thank you!!
Anyone watch the Keeneland sales, that AP Indy colt was one good looking baby that went for 4.2million!!!cant wait to see him run...
Thank you so much for the update...They are both so beautiful!
Greg,
Thanks for the great pictures. I hope for you that after the Kent Stakes, the brothers race at Belmont, until they head south. Delaware is a long ride from your place.
Thanks for the great pictures. I hope for you that after the Kent Stakes, the brothers race at Belmont, until they head south. Delaware is a long ride from your place.
I would still like to see
Rosie Napravnik on both brothers. It just seems like a good connection.
Rosie Napravnik on both brothers. It just seems like a good connection.
Thanks Greg for all the news and the great pictures. This one goes in both scrapebooks!
So glad the Jacksons and Peter were at their races. I'm sure they knew their owners were there to support them and give them that special little hug or touch before race time. Maybe Ms Jackson even brought them some of that special grass from the farm.
Guess we'll have to wait and see if Lentenor is racing on the 25th. Greg you will keep us posted.
Thanks again, well worth the wait.
So glad the Jacksons and Peter were at their races. I'm sure they knew their owners were there to support them and give them that special little hug or touch before race time. Maybe Ms Jackson even brought them some of that special grass from the farm.
Guess we'll have to wait and see if Lentenor is racing on the 25th. Greg you will keep us posted.
Thanks again, well worth the wait.
Greg, thanks so much for the update, the wonderful photos and your thoughts on what happened and what's next. Well said. I agree with you that most of us love the brothers and others! Thanks for the reminder about donations. Keep on with the work we do in Barbaro's name.
I have a great job for Nicanor, Show Jumping. Oh Mr. Matz can we get you to come back to show jumping and bring Nicanor along. Just a thought!
I hotwalked Hugo this summer at Colonial Downs. It was neat to see him running against Nicanor and I really wish he had won, he showed such determination and was barely caught. Not to mention I wish Nicanor had been able to run better.
Greg: thanks for the great update and the beautiful pictures.
Your picture of Nic fighting the jock really tells a lot. He was not a happy boy and was expending a lot of energy in a battle other than with the other horses.
Thanks again for a great update.
Your picture of Nic fighting the jock really tells a lot. He was not a happy boy and was expending a lot of energy in a battle other than with the other horses.
Thanks again for a great update.
GREG
Always enjoy reading EVERYTHING you write. The pics are wonderful!
Always enjoy reading EVERYTHING you write. The pics are wonderful!
Thanks for the update, Greg. Those are stunning photos, great job on those! Go Lentenor!
GREG
You are on point as usual. The guy is trying to have it both ways,similar to someone else on another blog that makes up his own rules.
You are on point as usual. The guy is trying to have it both ways,similar to someone else on another blog that makes up his own rules.
Great Greg - loved your take on the races and the pictures - such handsome boys!
Can't wait for the 25th!
Can't wait for the 25th!
Great update and thanks for backing up the FOBs! That picture of Nicanor just standing there is awsome. Mr Paulick really needs to explore ABR and he will see all we do and all the horses we follow.
Great article as usual, Greg! Love the pictures, what beautiful animals. The winner's circle is waiting for them!
Love both boys and I agree with Karen in Indiana, I'd be interested to see Nicanor sent over jumps in Steeplechasing.
Poor Nicanor, I can't help but feel for the boy. He has carried our wounded hearts. Since he was born Becaues of his attitude. I am laughing again I love when he gets a attitude on the track. No he is not a stake winner but because of nicanor i am not wounded any more from Barbaro. I still love him very much but Nicanor lets me laugh and i feel like i am not as hurt from Barbaro. Maybe he was not put on this earth to be a race horse. I will never get over Barbaro Nicanor is like Here I am This is me I came into the world so young and free
Thank you for the update and pictures.
jclson(fan of nicanor)
You hit it head on. Nicanor has been somewhat of a savior to all of us. He doesn't know what a God send he has been for soo many of us. Thank goodness he doesn't know all the expectations that were placed on him. He has Barbaro's spirit and a heart with the love for running. Now if he can just get it all straight and put together, he'll be one heck of a race horse. We'll always love him because he is Barbaro's little brother, no matter which direction the Jackson's send him. He will always have a special place in my heart. As will all the siblings of Barbaro.
You hit it head on. Nicanor has been somewhat of a savior to all of us. He doesn't know what a God send he has been for soo many of us. Thank goodness he doesn't know all the expectations that were placed on him. He has Barbaro's spirit and a heart with the love for running. Now if he can just get it all straight and put together, he'll be one heck of a race horse. We'll always love him because he is Barbaro's little brother, no matter which direction the Jackson's send him. He will always have a special place in my heart. As will all the siblings of Barbaro.
I am still of the opinion that Matz had momentum with Lentenor after the Florida Derby, but rather than move forward, held Lentenor out for several months, and we missed a chance to see that momentum carry over to other stakes races. We heard how Lentenor was going to run in the Belmont, or the Travers, and then suddenly finished a decent 4th in the Florida Derby, then 3rd after a long layoff to colts he should have beaten by a mile. I think another seasoned trainer would have pointed Lentenor to other lesser stakes and built him up for the Breeder's Cup, but now, we're back to square one.
Nicanor is cut from the same cloth. He, too, was out for a good while and lost any chance of being the colt we all thought he could be. He was at his peak before the Virginia Derby, grabbed a quarter, and Matz inexplicably kept the colt out for so long, he regressed, the same way Lentenor did.
I still say we need a trainer who isn't still afraid of the avoidable Barbaro fiasco. That colt broke through the starting gate for a reason, and should have been scratched. I remember he wasn't walking right before the Preakness, and then the alarm bells went off when he broke through the gate prematurely. Even the TV announcers said that behavior was ominous. I feel the same frustration reading about Ruffian's prior injuries-hairline fractures, etc. and both parents died from leg injuries? Is anyone not seeing the problem here? I wish someone would buy Margano , Nicanor and Lentenor so we can see what they're made of.
At this rate, we never will.
Nicanor is cut from the same cloth. He, too, was out for a good while and lost any chance of being the colt we all thought he could be. He was at his peak before the Virginia Derby, grabbed a quarter, and Matz inexplicably kept the colt out for so long, he regressed, the same way Lentenor did.
I still say we need a trainer who isn't still afraid of the avoidable Barbaro fiasco. That colt broke through the starting gate for a reason, and should have been scratched. I remember he wasn't walking right before the Preakness, and then the alarm bells went off when he broke through the gate prematurely. Even the TV announcers said that behavior was ominous. I feel the same frustration reading about Ruffian's prior injuries-hairline fractures, etc. and both parents died from leg injuries? Is anyone not seeing the problem here? I wish someone would buy Margano , Nicanor and Lentenor so we can see what they're made of.
At this rate, we never will.
Love to see the photos & updates on the brothers. Win or lose.
Matt D, while I applaud your sentiment, a race horse is still born to race first and foremost, not just be healthy; also no owner, no matter HOW wealthy can afford to keep an unhappy, untalented or unwilling horse in training forever....and before everyone attacks at once, I DID NOT SAY EITHER HORSE WAS UNTALENTED! Of course, the health and safety of our charges comes first, but right after that, comes a hard, cold look at what's going on with each horse. Along with the look comes the responsibility to do the best we can for each one. Maybe one, or both, of the brothers will NOT be another star..... that's certainly possible as lightning rarely strikes twice in a breeding shed. Maybe BOTH will end up shining on the track. If so, fine; if not, that's fine, too. Certainly the Jacksons have the smarts to figure out what is best for their horse/s. After all, they have done REALLY WELL so far. I think we can trust the Jacksons and Mr Matz to make the correct decision for the brothers, and that one of the foremost priorities is their health. Right after that might come their talent on the track, don't you think???
Cheers and safe trips.
Cheers and safe trips.
Jon,
I was going to ignore your comment, but, decided to address it instead.
First, get your facts correct, Nicanor grabbed a quarter in his first career start, not before the Virginia Derby. Nicanor injured his left hind leg during a gallop the week before the Virginia Derby. The injury required time off to heal.
Second, I have said this to you before, and, as usual, you continue to ignore it. I read your comments repeated ad nauseam, please, stop making comments when you have no clue to what you are saying. You are not the trainer of these colts, you are not there day in and day out. You have NO idea why Lentenor took a break after the Florida Derby. He was given a break because Mr. Matz thought it was in the best interest of Lentenor, enough said on that.
Lastly, The three Brothers of Barbaro are owned by The Jacksons, Thank God. That will never change, so, can you please move on? Do you have anything NEW to add? I am waiting with bated breath...
I was going to ignore your comment, but, decided to address it instead.
First, get your facts correct, Nicanor grabbed a quarter in his first career start, not before the Virginia Derby. Nicanor injured his left hind leg during a gallop the week before the Virginia Derby. The injury required time off to heal.
Second, I have said this to you before, and, as usual, you continue to ignore it. I read your comments repeated ad nauseam, please, stop making comments when you have no clue to what you are saying. You are not the trainer of these colts, you are not there day in and day out. You have NO idea why Lentenor took a break after the Florida Derby. He was given a break because Mr. Matz thought it was in the best interest of Lentenor, enough said on that.
Lastly, The three Brothers of Barbaro are owned by The Jacksons, Thank God. That will never change, so, can you please move on? Do you have anything NEW to add? I am waiting with bated breath...
Thank you for posting the photos and article. Can't help but LOVE the Boys!
It breaks my heart, and boggles my mind, to think that it actually BOTHERS some people in the industry, to the point of insults and fury, to know that many people, (we FOB in particular), are Fans of and Love "the brothers."
Loving NIC & LENNY, and any other brothers or sisters to come, does not negate devotion or admiration for any other horses at all. It only makes that special place in the heart of the one who Loves, just that much richer.
God Bless and speed them all.
Loving BARBARO...
Your FOB Fren, O
It breaks my heart, and boggles my mind, to think that it actually BOTHERS some people in the industry, to the point of insults and fury, to know that many people, (we FOB in particular), are Fans of and Love "the brothers."
Loving NIC & LENNY, and any other brothers or sisters to come, does not negate devotion or admiration for any other horses at all. It only makes that special place in the heart of the one who Loves, just that much richer.
God Bless and speed them all.
Loving BARBARO...
Your FOB Fren, O
Thanks for the update Greg.
Congratulations to the Jackson's who get a Dynaformer filly:
www.bloodhorse.com/.../jacksons-buy-dynaformer-filly-for-900000
www.equineline.com/.../tn.cfm
Congratulations to the Jackson's who get a Dynaformer filly:
www.bloodhorse.com/.../jacksons-buy-dynaformer-filly-for-900000
www.equineline.com/.../tn.cfm
Hi Greg,
thanks for your pictures and comments about the brothers' races. Always enjoy reading your point of view!
thanks for your pictures and comments about the brothers' races. Always enjoy reading your point of view!
Thanks for your excellent summary of both races Greg! Your comments were well worth the wait :)
Nice pics and great article. I wouldn't care if they both were hacks in Central Park. I still love them for who they are. No, there no Barbaro - we probably will never see another like him, but all the blood is the same. Lentenor and Nicanor will run and once again win, when it's their time.
Jacksons Buy Dynaformer Filly for $900,000
By Blood-Horse Staff
A filly by Dynaformer fetched $900,000 at the second select session of the Keeneland September yearling sale Sept. 13. Consigned by Eaton Sales, agent, she was bought by Nicoma, agent for Roy and Gretchen Jackson’s Lael Stable.
The Jacksons' new Dynaformer filly was bred in Kentucky by St. George Farm. She is the second foal out of the stakes-winning Wild Rush mare Bank Audit, who is a daughter of stakes winner Mosquera.
By Blood-Horse Staff
A filly by Dynaformer fetched $900,000 at the second select session of the Keeneland September yearling sale Sept. 13. Consigned by Eaton Sales, agent, she was bought by Nicoma, agent for Roy and Gretchen Jackson’s Lael Stable.
The Jacksons' new Dynaformer filly was bred in Kentucky by St. George Farm. She is the second foal out of the stakes-winning Wild Rush mare Bank Audit, who is a daughter of stakes winner Mosquera.
Great pictures and commentary Greg. Everyone wants to point the finger at how these colts arn't doing well. They both have made more money than most that go to the track. Nicanor has had physical issues that have required time off. It also appears he is very stubborn. He will race, but they have to find the right driver and the right equipment. He will win eventually. (I had a standardbred the same way, just like Nic. When we figured it out, he went well & won. Yes we had to put the whip away too). Lentenor will do fine, appears to have had another growth spurt. Just need to get the boys in sooner for races. They are not Barbaro and only a fool would compare them.
Greg,
What an excellent report about these beloved brothers! You certainly have a gift of writing, as your blog makes me feel as if I was there! Michael knows his 'charges', and, he shall succeed in helping Nicanor and Lentenor tap into their talents!
What an excellent report about these beloved brothers! You certainly have a gift of writing, as your blog makes me feel as if I was there! Michael knows his 'charges', and, he shall succeed in helping Nicanor and Lentenor tap into their talents!
The little ones are not Barbaro, they are themselves...nic wants to run, NOT race...Lenny wants to race, but is not quite mature yet...a new jockey might help, not sure yet...as for the new baby boy, I have heard nothing about him yet and I don't even know his name...he will be more like his brother Barbaro than his other brothers...now when the filly is born She will be great...
I just want them all healthy to carry on the family name...
I just want them all healthy to carry on the family name...
thanks greg for the update. i agree with everyone on the fact that these two colts arent their brother, but that doesnt mean they cant be good horses in their own right. i did read somwhere that dynaformer's offspring take a little while longer to develop than other horses. that could be the case with these two. that's okay because, not every horse can be a champion, thats why the great ones are called great.
I think that NIC should be running on grass,keep the blinkers, and LET HIM RUN. I also hope they will put Rosie back on him as his permanent rider. They were a super combination. I think he responded to her, and she to him.
I Love both brothers. I think their highest potential,(especially NICANOR on the turf), has not yet been realized. They both need more chances with the right combination of factors.
Let's hope that they stay healthy enough to 'get there,' and that the Jacksons never sell them, or send them away, such as what happened to Lael-owned LAST BEST PLACE, having been sent to stand at stud in Chile.
I want to enjoy watching, and following them, for not only their racing careers, but for all of the phases in their lives. The Dynaformer/LaVille Rouge line s a great and dynamic family.
We have been blessed to have had the privilege of experiencing such an intimate insight via the FOB famblee.
Your FOB Fren, O
I Love both brothers. I think their highest potential,(especially NICANOR on the turf), has not yet been realized. They both need more chances with the right combination of factors.
Let's hope that they stay healthy enough to 'get there,' and that the Jacksons never sell them, or send them away, such as what happened to Lael-owned LAST BEST PLACE, having been sent to stand at stud in Chile.
I want to enjoy watching, and following them, for not only their racing careers, but for all of the phases in their lives. The Dynaformer/LaVille Rouge line s a great and dynamic family.
We have been blessed to have had the privilege of experiencing such an intimate insight via the FOB famblee.
Your FOB Fren, O
The Farmers,
The third brothers name is Margano(foaled March 10, 2009) and he should be leaving Mill Ridge Farm in Kentucky within the next few weeks. He will then go to Stephens Thoroughbreds near Ocala, Fla., to begin his early training. It is the same path of Margano's three other brothers.
The third brothers name is Margano(foaled March 10, 2009) and he should be leaving Mill Ridge Farm in Kentucky within the next few weeks. He will then go to Stephens Thoroughbreds near Ocala, Fla., to begin his early training. It is the same path of Margano's three other brothers.
Nicanor, I don't know, I was the first that said he needed blinkers after his first race. Okay, here's the plan, put the blinkers on, run him on the dirt, and jockey, whoever you are, don't fight him, just let him run.
Lentenor, he simply needs a jockey that will commit to him; a very talented horse. Go Lentenor!!!!!!
Lentenor, he simply needs a jockey that will commit to him; a very talented horse. Go Lentenor!!!!!!
JON
What is this "we" junk. We or you DON'T OWN THEM. The Jacksons do,as Greg told you. The Jacksons' and Matz set the gold standard of how ALL horses should have the same type of connections to place their best interest FIRST! You say the same slams repeatly. What's your problem you have w/ the connections? Don't you get it it's not your call to make. Stop being a crybaby!
What is this "we" junk. We or you DON'T OWN THEM. The Jacksons do,as Greg told you. The Jacksons' and Matz set the gold standard of how ALL horses should have the same type of connections to place their best interest FIRST! You say the same slams repeatly. What's your problem you have w/ the connections? Don't you get it it's not your call to make. Stop being a crybaby!
Great article as always, Greg. And Cat: glad you mentioned the Dynaformer filly bought by the Jacksons. Run, don't walk to look at her photo - she is jaw-dropping gorgeous! I think she is the "spare" in an "heir and a spare" decision in case we never see a filly from DDaddy - LVR. She'll do very nicely! I'll be very interested to see what kind of racing career she has. Greg - hope you can snare a couple of photos of her in time. Looking forward to the boyz next set of races and agree with most - Let Nic run! No whip either, other than to steer. Len seems to "get it" more than big brother. Safe trips to all.
Jon-
ruffian's parents died after she did, Reviewer slipped in his paddock. How was anyone supposed to know?
ruffian's parents died after she did, Reviewer slipped in his paddock. How was anyone supposed to know?
Thank you so very much for the pictures. Our guys just seem to get more and more handsome. Also, thanks a million for the great writing. I knew there was a reason Lentenor had to back up a bit but the only video I could get was so bad I couldn't tell what it was. Lastly, since you're so close to the action, maybe you could tell me if indeed there is such a thing as a sprint type race on turf. Since Nicanor does seem to prefer turf why not let him run on it? If he's not happy unless he's running flat out in the lead why not let him play quarterhorse and put him in shorter races so he has something for the end or is there something wrong with sprinting? Otherwise, I think I'd have to go with those who think blinkers and a regular jockey would make him happier.
Hi Greg, been away myself and have just now had a chance to catch up on the latest. So happy to see an entry from you and as usual, your comments are most appreciated. Can't say the same for Jon. Clearly, there's a problem there. He doesn't seem to understand the scenerio of fan vs owner vs insider/outsider, etc etc. What can you say to someone that just doesn't seem to get it. You handled it correctly, Greg. Sadly, I don't believe it made a bit of difference. Anyway, thanks big guy for filling us in on the doings of our beloved brothers. Can't wait to see them both again.
half-brother Holy Ground also ran in the Kent Stakes at 3 and placed 4th.
Lou in TX, I'm glad you like my comments but i know i did't write that right. What i meant to say is Barbaro was America's Horse When he died He took all our hearts with him. When Nicanor was born he had all our hearts to heal and i feel he did a fine job. If he was a horse like the others He would be a boring horse. Instead he entertains us with his attitude He got whipped by the jockey and you clearly tell he didn't like it. His attitude was like OKAY YOU HIT ME I'M GOING TO FIX YOU AND HE DID. He has healed my heart i laugh at him everytime i see him. I'm sure i am not alone. We have to remember Nicanor and Lentenor has gone further then Barbaro ever has I feel they are going on with Barbaros Legacy Maybe not on the race trck but I believe they are around 4 years old. Barbaro never made it to 4. I think they carried on his legacy very well.
Another great piece Greg. Kudos. I know that there are great gaps between the Brothers races but if you look at all the other Matz horses they have long gaps also, guess that is the way that Michael trains, it's his way of doing things. I also saw where Lael bought the Dynaformer filly as I know they love those lines. Maybe wrong but we have heard nothing about LVR's lastest bundle of joy and I know that enough time has passed so that they know what they are getting....could it be another colt is on it's way. Of course this is just MY theory and only Mill Ridge and the Jackson's know for sure. I know they have a big band of broodmares at Mill Ridge and of course having one by Dynaformer would be the topping on the cake, if you can't get it from LVR than half is better than none at all and she is a beauty from her picture. Can't wait for Lentenor's race. Since it is a weekend doubt if it will be seen on TVG so will have to rely on Delaware to let me see it. Fast and safe trip for Lentenor and I know he will reach the winners circle soon, if not this try than the next.
Great article Greg. Thank you for the wonderful pictures.
Nicanor made the pain of losing Barbara easier. He was there to give of hope and in his own way comfort us. He will indeed always be special in our hearts. No one can take away from the fact that he is one beautiful or should I say handsome horse. Lentenor is just as handsome and we got double blessing when he came along.
Once again, thank you Greg for the article, well worth the wait.
Nicanor made the pain of losing Barbara easier. He was there to give of hope and in his own way comfort us. He will indeed always be special in our hearts. No one can take away from the fact that he is one beautiful or should I say handsome horse. Lentenor is just as handsome and we got double blessing when he came along.
Once again, thank you Greg for the article, well worth the wait.
Thank you for the great positive updates on our boys,love them so much!
Thank you for the update and, especially, the photos! Dynaformer was a HUGE handful when he ran and still is, so it comes as no big surprise that his sons have real minds of their own.
I hope that Mr. Matz can solve the enigma code. Both boys are incredible looking and we know the talent is there. Figuring out how to get to it, well that's the real issue. All Barbaro's family will stay in my "Stable" until they stop racing - whenever that may be. I'll also add the Jackson's new Dynaformer filly once named. She's a real Dynaformer - that's for sure!
I hope that Mr. Matz can solve the enigma code. Both boys are incredible looking and we know the talent is there. Figuring out how to get to it, well that's the real issue. All Barbaro's family will stay in my "Stable" until they stop racing - whenever that may be. I'll also add the Jackson's new Dynaformer filly once named. She's a real Dynaformer - that's for sure!
Hey Lou In Texas
Any idea about Sandieh, she hasnt been around for some time last I heard she stroked. Goodness, I hope she is ok..
You know, I love Zenyatta,Rachel,SuperSaver and all of these magnificient race horses and yes, The Brothers of Barbaro rank right at the top with them... win or lose, it doesnt matter...
Any idea about Sandieh, she hasnt been around for some time last I heard she stroked. Goodness, I hope she is ok..
You know, I love Zenyatta,Rachel,SuperSaver and all of these magnificient race horses and yes, The Brothers of Barbaro rank right at the top with them... win or lose, it doesnt matter...
My original post seems to be lost in cyberspace...
Thanks Greg for the updates and pictures. That side shot of Nicanor is as close to a conformation shot as I've seen.
Congratulations to the Jackson's for getting their Dynaformer filly. This one has no Mr. Prospector in her pedigree:
www.equineline.com/.../tn.cfm
That gives them many more options in the shed when she's done racing. I'm sure they'll get the sales fat off before training as she looks a little heavy right now. Could be the angle of the photo, too. Nice looking girl.
Thanks Greg for the updates and pictures. That side shot of Nicanor is as close to a conformation shot as I've seen.
Congratulations to the Jackson's for getting their Dynaformer filly. This one has no Mr. Prospector in her pedigree:
www.equineline.com/.../tn.cfm
That gives them many more options in the shed when she's done racing. I'm sure they'll get the sales fat off before training as she looks a little heavy right now. Could be the angle of the photo, too. Nice looking girl.
Nicanor is a horse who HAS to have the lead, fights the jockey when asked to lay off a too fast pace, and someone suggests blinkers? You've got to be kidding!
It is time to accept that neither of these colts are Barbaro. Both prefer the lawn, while Barbaro excelled on dirt.
Love to hear the updates, but now would love to know how Baby-nor is doing!
It is time to accept that neither of these colts are Barbaro. Both prefer the lawn, while Barbaro excelled on dirt.
Love to hear the updates, but now would love to know how Baby-nor is doing!
I am with Jon lets see what Lentenor is made out of. I think he has a chance to be a star and hopefully he will get to show that this year. The breeders cup is asking alot but maybe they can lead him up to some big races next year. I think Lentenor wins easily on the 25th. Also lets get lentenor out of delware and run at a real track!
like I've been saying on this forum for a year or two....these animals are bad bets!! always short prices, and can't seem to win. so, in a sense, Mr. Paulick is right....from a bettor's point of view.
oh, and Lmaris, blinkers would indeed benefit "need the lead" types...I think you're confused a bit.
Thanks for the pictures and update. Kathy, I think Lentenor looks magnificent in these pictures and bigger than Nicanor (looks good too). Do we know who is bigger in for sure?
I was just thinking about other pairs of brothers--for instance Viceregent and Viceroyal. One was the superior runner; the other was was the superior sire. The Brothers may not be the runners that Barbaro was (very few are), but there is such potential at stud for both of them!!
IT AINT EASY BEING GOOD
Why am I not suprised that you would agree w/ knucklehead statements from someone like JON? If fact,would've bet the house you would!
Why am I not suprised that you would agree w/ knucklehead statements from someone like JON? If fact,would've bet the house you would!
I believe this Dynaformer filly out of Bank Audit is the same age as Margano. Who knows maybe she'll hang out with Margano down in Ocala this year. Margano does have an eye for the fillies.
There may be potential in the stud for the brothers. However, horses like Purim are more likely to carry on the Dynaformer line. He's got Ribot and Hail To Reason REPEATED on his dam's side and the tail female goes to ASPIDISTRA, dam of Dr. Fager and Ta Wee, with no Mr. Prospector blood. I'm not saying the brothers may or may not eventually make useful stallions, espcially if their race record improves- the value, and the need, IHMO, is in horses that don't carry the Mr. Prospector lines as those who do are a dime a dozen these days.
I hope when her racing days are over for the Jackson's new Dynaformer filly, that they consider keeping the PM blood out so that there might be a few more stallions for out-cross purposes.
That said, LVR does carry DJEDDAH, a line also known for sport horses. We already know some Dynaformer's make good jump racers. I said a long time ago that I thought Nicanor should be tried there. Perhaps having to think about jumping would take his mind off "My way or no way."
I hope when her racing days are over for the Jackson's new Dynaformer filly, that they consider keeping the PM blood out so that there might be a few more stallions for out-cross purposes.
That said, LVR does carry DJEDDAH, a line also known for sport horses. We already know some Dynaformer's make good jump racers. I said a long time ago that I thought Nicanor should be tried there. Perhaps having to think about jumping would take his mind off "My way or no way."
My love for Barbaro will always be strong and I'll always back all his siblings.... Equine and human!!
Thank You for letting me know the name of the newest baby boy and what a great name (Margano) it is...I think he will also be GREAT in his own right...Thank you again...
FYI,
Lentenor had a work out this morning at Fair Hill, on the dirt track. He covered four furlongs in 51 seconds flat, listed as breezing, 12/13 that worked. I would expect one more work next week before his race on the 25th(if he gets in the race).
Lentenor had a work out this morning at Fair Hill, on the dirt track. He covered four furlongs in 51 seconds flat, listed as breezing, 12/13 that worked. I would expect one more work next week before his race on the 25th(if he gets in the race).
Kathy, I think the new filly is a year older than Margano. She's a 2 year old and he's still a yearling. She is just stunning, isn't she?
Greg,
Great article, I completely agree with everything that you said. The pictures are amazing as well. I think it was a good race for Lentenor, he seems to have some bad racing luck, but I think his next race will be a big one. I am also wondering, do you think that you will be able to see Margano after he gets to Stephens?
Great article, I completely agree with everything that you said. The pictures are amazing as well. I think it was a good race for Lentenor, he seems to have some bad racing luck, but I think his next race will be a big one. I am also wondering, do you think that you will be able to see Margano after he gets to Stephens?
THE FARMERS
Did we met two years ago at Darby Dan open house?
Did we met two years ago at Darby Dan open house?
Hi Cal Gal,
The information I found says she is Margano's age.
FINANCIAL EMPIRE (USA) b. C, 2008 DP = 8-6-6-0-2 (22) DI = 3.40 CD = 0.82
State Bred: KY
Foaled April 19, 2008
(CLOSE)
EMPIRE MAKER (USA)
dkb/br. 2000 UNBRIDLED (USA)
b. 1987 [BI] FAPPIANO (USA)
b. 1977 [IC] MR. PROSPECTOR (USA)
b. 1970 [BC] RAISE A NATIVE (USA) ch. 1961 [B]
GOLD DIGGER (USA) b. 1962
KILLALOE (USA)
b. 1970 DR. FAGER (USA) b. 1964 [I]
GRAND SPLENDOR (USA) b. 1962
GANA FACIL (USA)
ch. 1981 LE FABULEUX (FR)
ch. 1961 [P] WILD RISK (FR) b. 1940 [P]
ANGUAR (FR) b. 1950
CHAREDI (USA)
dkb/br. 1976 IN REALITY (USA) b. 1964 [BC]
MAGIC (USA) dkb/br. 1969 *
TOUSSAUD (USA)*
dkb/br. 1989 EL GRAN SENOR (USA)
b. 1981 NORTHERN DANCER (CAN)
b. 1961 [BC] NEARCTIC (CAN) br. 1954
NATALMA (USA) b. 1957 *
SEX APPEAL (USA)*
ch. 1970 BUCKPASSER (USA) b. 1963 [C]
BEST IN SHOW (USA) ch. 1965 *
IMAGE OF REALITY (USA)
b. 1976 IN REALITY (USA)
b. 1964 [BC] INTENTIONALLY (USA) blk. 1956 [BI]
MY DEAR GIRL (USA) ch. 1957 *
EDEE'S IMAGE (USA)*
dkb/br. 1969 CORNISH PRINCE (USA) br. 1962
ORTALAN (USA) ch. 1960 *
BANK AUDIT (USA)
dkb/br. 2001 WILD RUSH (USA)
b. 1994 WILD AGAIN (USA)
dkb/br. 1980 ICECAPADE (USA)
gr. 1969 [BC] NEARCTIC (CAN) br. 1954
SHENANIGANS (USA) gr. 1963 *
BUSHEL-N-PECK (USA)
dkb/br. 1958 KHALED (GB) dkb/br. 1943 [I]
DAMA (GB) b. 1950
ROSE PARK (USA)
b. 1986 PLUGGED NICKLE (USA)
b. 1977 KEY TO THE MINT (USA) b. 1969 [BC]
TOLL BOOTH (USA) b. 1971 *
HARDSHIP (USA)
gr. 1977 DRONE (USA) gr. 1966
HARD AND FAST (USA) b. 1968
MOSQUERA (USA)
dkb/br. 1985 FARAWAY SON (USA)
b. 1967 AMBIOPOISE (USA)
b. 1958 AMBIORIX (FR) dkb/br. 1946
BULL POISE (USA) b. 1948
LOCUST TIME (USA)*
br. 1955 SPY SONG (USA) br. 1943 [B]
SNOW GOOSE (USA) gr. 1944
RABIDA (USA)
b. 1977 ROLLICKING (USA)
b. 1967 RAMBUNCTIOUS (USA) b. 1960
MARTINETTA (USA) br. 1961
RATTAN (USA)
b. 1967 TATAN (ARG) ch. 1952
CASSARATE (GB) blk/br. 1959
BRIS reports for financial empire: - Choose - Start-by-Start Reports Pedigrees and Other Reports Nicking Reports North American Sales Results Breeder Reports Racing Update Note: All Bris horse racing reports require you to be a brisnet member. For a free sign up, click here
© 2010 PedigreeQuery.com All rights reserved.
Owner: St. George Farm
Breeder: Morgan's Ford Farm
State Bred: VA
Winnings: 30 Starts: 10 - 6 - 6, $567,934
1st Distaff Breeders' Cup H. [G2], Genuine Risk H. [G2], Interborough H. [L], House Party S.
2nd Vagrancy H. [G2], Correction H. [L]
3rd Honorable Miss H. [G2], Garland of Roses H. [L], Flip's Pleasure S.
Further produce:
2009 filly by Dynaformer (KEESEP'10 $900,000 yrlg)
The information I found says she is Margano's age.
FINANCIAL EMPIRE (USA) b. C, 2008 DP = 8-6-6-0-2 (22) DI = 3.40 CD = 0.82
State Bred: KY
Foaled April 19, 2008
(CLOSE)
EMPIRE MAKER (USA)
dkb/br. 2000 UNBRIDLED (USA)
b. 1987 [BI] FAPPIANO (USA)
b. 1977 [IC] MR. PROSPECTOR (USA)
b. 1970 [BC] RAISE A NATIVE (USA) ch. 1961 [B]
GOLD DIGGER (USA) b. 1962
KILLALOE (USA)
b. 1970 DR. FAGER (USA) b. 1964 [I]
GRAND SPLENDOR (USA) b. 1962
GANA FACIL (USA)
ch. 1981 LE FABULEUX (FR)
ch. 1961 [P] WILD RISK (FR) b. 1940 [P]
ANGUAR (FR) b. 1950
CHAREDI (USA)
dkb/br. 1976 IN REALITY (USA) b. 1964 [BC]
MAGIC (USA) dkb/br. 1969 *
TOUSSAUD (USA)*
dkb/br. 1989 EL GRAN SENOR (USA)
b. 1981 NORTHERN DANCER (CAN)
b. 1961 [BC] NEARCTIC (CAN) br. 1954
NATALMA (USA) b. 1957 *
SEX APPEAL (USA)*
ch. 1970 BUCKPASSER (USA) b. 1963 [C]
BEST IN SHOW (USA) ch. 1965 *
IMAGE OF REALITY (USA)
b. 1976 IN REALITY (USA)
b. 1964 [BC] INTENTIONALLY (USA) blk. 1956 [BI]
MY DEAR GIRL (USA) ch. 1957 *
EDEE'S IMAGE (USA)*
dkb/br. 1969 CORNISH PRINCE (USA) br. 1962
ORTALAN (USA) ch. 1960 *
BANK AUDIT (USA)
dkb/br. 2001 WILD RUSH (USA)
b. 1994 WILD AGAIN (USA)
dkb/br. 1980 ICECAPADE (USA)
gr. 1969 [BC] NEARCTIC (CAN) br. 1954
SHENANIGANS (USA) gr. 1963 *
BUSHEL-N-PECK (USA)
dkb/br. 1958 KHALED (GB) dkb/br. 1943 [I]
DAMA (GB) b. 1950
ROSE PARK (USA)
b. 1986 PLUGGED NICKLE (USA)
b. 1977 KEY TO THE MINT (USA) b. 1969 [BC]
TOLL BOOTH (USA) b. 1971 *
HARDSHIP (USA)
gr. 1977 DRONE (USA) gr. 1966
HARD AND FAST (USA) b. 1968
MOSQUERA (USA)
dkb/br. 1985 FARAWAY SON (USA)
b. 1967 AMBIOPOISE (USA)
b. 1958 AMBIORIX (FR) dkb/br. 1946
BULL POISE (USA) b. 1948
LOCUST TIME (USA)*
br. 1955 SPY SONG (USA) br. 1943 [B]
SNOW GOOSE (USA) gr. 1944
RABIDA (USA)
b. 1977 ROLLICKING (USA)
b. 1967 RAMBUNCTIOUS (USA) b. 1960
MARTINETTA (USA) br. 1961
RATTAN (USA)
b. 1967 TATAN (ARG) ch. 1952
CASSARATE (GB) blk/br. 1959
BRIS reports for financial empire: - Choose - Start-by-Start Reports Pedigrees and Other Reports Nicking Reports North American Sales Results Breeder Reports Racing Update Note: All Bris horse racing reports require you to be a brisnet member. For a free sign up, click here
© 2010 PedigreeQuery.com All rights reserved.
Owner: St. George Farm
Breeder: Morgan's Ford Farm
State Bred: VA
Winnings: 30 Starts: 10 - 6 - 6, $567,934
1st Distaff Breeders' Cup H. [G2], Genuine Risk H. [G2], Interborough H. [L], House Party S.
2nd Vagrancy H. [G2], Correction H. [L]
3rd Honorable Miss H. [G2], Garland of Roses H. [L], Flip's Pleasure S.
Further produce:
2009 filly by Dynaformer (KEESEP'10 $900,000 yrlg)
Kathy thats the report that I have seen so, whats the right one?? This is it isnt it???
There are great bloodlines working here..and race record or not..I would hope these individuals would be tried at stud..with quality mares..which will not be supported with in the retail industry. So many winners, retired early, provided the next generation with infirm runners. Take a chance..as with good broodmares, non winners, with good breeding. Breed the blood lines. Leave any infirmaties behind.
Barbaro..and his line...left many of the infirmities behind. Go Bros!
Barbaro..and his line...left many of the infirmities behind. Go Bros!
Jim Course
I would like to know if you have any idea as to what farm "Holy Ground" is Standing in Argentina?
Myself and Diastu would love to know!!! Any idea???
Thank You
Rose
I would like to know if you have any idea as to what farm "Holy Ground" is Standing in Argentina?
Myself and Diastu would love to know!!! Any idea???
Thank You
Rose
I got this information from pedigree query.
However, if you want to go to the source, go to Blood Horse.
www.bloodhorse.com/.../jacksons-buy-dynaformer-filly-for-900000
A filly by Dynaformer fetched $900,000 at the second select session of the Keeneland September yearling sale...
I think this sentence pretty much clears the matter up. She was sold in a yearling sale.
However, if you want to go to the source, go to Blood Horse.
www.bloodhorse.com/.../jacksons-buy-dynaformer-filly-for-900000
A filly by Dynaformer fetched $900,000 at the second select session of the Keeneland September yearling sale...
I think this sentence pretty much clears the matter up. She was sold in a yearling sale.
Glad that the Dynaformer filly has no Mr. Prospector in her pedigree. Thank goodness
Great pics. Thanks for the update
Mary.
What is so great about the filly having no Mr Prospector in her
pedigree? Can anyone answer this?
What is so great about the filly having no Mr Prospector in her
pedigree? Can anyone answer this?
Mary, give it a rest! All we hear from you is blinkers and bad mouthing Mr Prospector. Who do you think sired Carson City, sire of La Villa Rouge? This is Roberto/Mr Prospector country here on this page. Like it or not and frankly, one cannot discuss the Barbaro line without including Mr Prospector. Other blogs might be interested in your dissing Mr Prospector but it's totally misplaced here.
Here is a little information on Mr. Prospector.
It appears that Mr. P, (that what he was called), fractured a sesamoid bone which ended his career on the track at the age of 4.
I've read where he was very fast at 6 furlongs. Must have been a sprinter.His claim to fame was as a sire. He sired 165 stakes winners and here is what BH had to say back in 2002.
It was a Triple Crown year in 1998 for two of his sons.
Quiet American won the Kentucky Derby and the Preakness.
His son Victory Gallop won the Belmont Stakes,
Here is a story from BH on Mr. Prospector.
From a career standpoint, Mr. P has sired mares that have produced 222 stakes winners, nearly 10%. That number figures to climb even higher in the future.
url is:
www.bloodhorse.com/.../mr-prospector-tops-broodmare-sire-list-for-fifth-year-in-row
In 1999, Mr. P was euthanized due to colic at the age of 29.
It appears that Mr. P, (that what he was called), fractured a sesamoid bone which ended his career on the track at the age of 4.
I've read where he was very fast at 6 furlongs. Must have been a sprinter.His claim to fame was as a sire. He sired 165 stakes winners and here is what BH had to say back in 2002.
It was a Triple Crown year in 1998 for two of his sons.
Quiet American won the Kentucky Derby and the Preakness.
His son Victory Gallop won the Belmont Stakes,
Here is a story from BH on Mr. Prospector.
From a career standpoint, Mr. P has sired mares that have produced 222 stakes winners, nearly 10%. That number figures to climb even higher in the future.
url is:
www.bloodhorse.com/.../mr-prospector-tops-broodmare-sire-list-for-fifth-year-in-row
In 1999, Mr. P was euthanized due to colic at the age of 29.
Very enjoyable and informative. I even laughed out loud reading about Nic and Lentenor feeling the pressure from their fans. Win or lose, I love the Jackson brothers.
DONA
I agree with you.
I agree with you.
The new Dynaformer filly is awesome. Maybe the Jacksons already know that LVR's foal is another Barbaro bro?
Thanks, Greg, for all of your optimism and defense of the Jackson brothers. The FOBs are not "fair weather friends". We love them all for their individual personas and are excited about their lives and futures.
Looking forward to all of your future blogs on here.
Thanks, Greg, for all of your optimism and defense of the Jackson brothers. The FOBs are not "fair weather friends". We love them all for their individual personas and are excited about their lives and futures.
Looking forward to all of your future blogs on here.
Thanks Mike, appreciate it. Thank you Kathy, nice work on Mr P's record.
If anyone is interested, Avalyn Hunter's book "Gold Rush, How Mr Prospector Became Racings Billion-Dollar Sire" is the definitive source on the story of Mr. P. Enough said, back to Nicanor and Lentenors story.
I was just wondering how the blog will change when Margano is included. Will it be "Tracking Barbaro's Brothers Three"? Fun stuff ahead! Can't wait.
If anyone is interested, Avalyn Hunter's book "Gold Rush, How Mr Prospector Became Racings Billion-Dollar Sire" is the definitive source on the story of Mr. P. Enough said, back to Nicanor and Lentenors story.
I was just wondering how the blog will change when Margano is included. Will it be "Tracking Barbaro's Brothers Three"? Fun stuff ahead! Can't wait.
Thanks Kathy for the information on Mr. Prospector, he was one good looking fella and his offspring excellent...
Love the Brothers of Barbaro and their bloodlines...
Love the Brothers of Barbaro and their bloodlines...
Kathy, my mistake. She is a yearling. Don't know where I got the idea she was a two year old.
Well, I too am a "No Mr. Prospector" person and wow, this is only a page for the Dynaformer/Mr.Prospector angle?
Mr. P is widely known as a sire of sires, one reason the line is so prolific. Sire's have far reaching impact because of the number of offspring they can have each year. His line is, for the most part, precocious and fast. Meaning they get success very early. Also more known for short distance runners.
But what comes with that is the tendency for leg problems. That is known industry wide.
Carson City is the sire of LVR and IMHO, that's the down side of the pedigree, FROM A DURABILITY standpoint. Carson City back there may also show up in a tendency in the offspring to run shorter. You never know which kid is going to get what. I imagine that breeding LVR to Dynaformer was to increase the durability and get some stamina. In fact, if memory serves, the Jackson's used Dynaformer for that reason. Then they hit the unusual when they got Barbaro. As I've read it, usually they cross speed on the top and stamina on the bottom, so this is kind of a reverse of that. LVR may have run longer than her pedigree but you never discount the grand sires/dams. I say that from experience as I had a filly that threw back to her grandsire in appearance. Had a horse by a Mr. Prospector son who had feet issues as soon as it went into training-for a riding horse, not racing. That began my education about Mr. Prospector horses.
I don't want to see Mr. P in a pedigree and certainly not more than once. Very careful about his sire, too. I visit several other forums and even the sport horse people are wary of the MR. P/RAN lines. They pay attention to how much is in the pedigree and who it comes down through.
Even if the MR. P lines were durable there is so much of it out there now that outcross lines are really needed. (Also true of Northern Dancer lines) That is why I hope the Jackson's new filly has success at the track and that they consider breeding her to non-Mr.P stallions. Of course, we're all just speculating here and the Jackson's will do what they think is best. I'm just thrilled to see them get the Dynaformer filly they've always wanted.
I thought this was an open discussion board where opinions and ideas didn't have to meet someone else's approval. Discussing thoroughbred lines is educational and certainly is a part of the whole picture.
Mr. P is widely known as a sire of sires, one reason the line is so prolific. Sire's have far reaching impact because of the number of offspring they can have each year. His line is, for the most part, precocious and fast. Meaning they get success very early. Also more known for short distance runners.
But what comes with that is the tendency for leg problems. That is known industry wide.
Carson City is the sire of LVR and IMHO, that's the down side of the pedigree, FROM A DURABILITY standpoint. Carson City back there may also show up in a tendency in the offspring to run shorter. You never know which kid is going to get what. I imagine that breeding LVR to Dynaformer was to increase the durability and get some stamina. In fact, if memory serves, the Jackson's used Dynaformer for that reason. Then they hit the unusual when they got Barbaro. As I've read it, usually they cross speed on the top and stamina on the bottom, so this is kind of a reverse of that. LVR may have run longer than her pedigree but you never discount the grand sires/dams. I say that from experience as I had a filly that threw back to her grandsire in appearance. Had a horse by a Mr. Prospector son who had feet issues as soon as it went into training-for a riding horse, not racing. That began my education about Mr. Prospector horses.
I don't want to see Mr. P in a pedigree and certainly not more than once. Very careful about his sire, too. I visit several other forums and even the sport horse people are wary of the MR. P/RAN lines. They pay attention to how much is in the pedigree and who it comes down through.
Even if the MR. P lines were durable there is so much of it out there now that outcross lines are really needed. (Also true of Northern Dancer lines) That is why I hope the Jackson's new filly has success at the track and that they consider breeding her to non-Mr.P stallions. Of course, we're all just speculating here and the Jackson's will do what they think is best. I'm just thrilled to see them get the Dynaformer filly they've always wanted.
I thought this was an open discussion board where opinions and ideas didn't have to meet someone else's approval. Discussing thoroughbred lines is educational and certainly is a part of the whole picture.
Cal Gal, don't worry about it. She looks big and shoot, she is almost two anyway.
I enjoyed this update very much. I am a fan of these guys and will always be. I love any information and of course the pictures!
Kathy, Quiet American did not win the Kentucky Derby/Preakness in 1998. His son, Real Quiet, did. Real Quiet's great-grandsire was Mr. Prospector, through Fappiano, the sire of Quiet American. The '98 Belmont was won by Victory Gallop, whose sire Cryptoclearance was also a son of Fappiano. So, both Real Quiet and Victory Gallop were grandsons of Fappiano through their sires, and thus great-grandsons of Mr. P.
Mr. Prospector DID sire Fusaichi Pegasus, who won the Derby in 2000.
Mr. Prospector DID sire Fusaichi Pegasus, who won the Derby in 2000.
Love the photos of the boys. Whether they win or not, it eases the pain of the loss of Barbaro hearing about them.
Go to Three Chimneys and see their imposing sire Dynaformer. Talk about impressive!
Go to Three Chimneys and see their imposing sire Dynaformer. Talk about impressive!
Anne Peters was the pedegree analyst for the Jacksons at Three Chimneys Stable and she recomended Dynaformer as a sire because in everyones opinion, La Ville Rouge could use a little more bone and scope in her offspring. I have not seen or read anywhere that indurance and stamina were the deciding factors. Certainly a by product and that's a good thing. I believe Headley Bell reiterated that fact in the video of him talking to Amanda Duckworth. The fact that they "hit the unusual" with Barbaro seems to be the reason they have stayed with Dynaformer. The breding combination of Dynaformer and La Ville Rouge produces beautiful large oppspring and that's why we're here. The Tracking of Barbaro's Brothers or the world of Dynaformer and La Vile Rouge's offspring and all that it entails. The owners, trainer, stable mates, barn and racing conditions, any and all tidbits connected to the brothers. Greg is telling us all about the Barbaro brothers as he sees it and we are richer in knowledge and spirit for his effort. Comments and opinions aside, I don't think this is the place to air someones likes and dislikes of Mr Prospector. After all it's a done deal, the mating took place a long time ago and nothing will change that. It is what it is and we all love the results.
So what's the point of dissing Mr P when talking about Barbaro's brothers?
So what's the point of dissing Mr P when talking about Barbaro's brothers?
Today my girl Rosie Napravnik won the 1-mile $50,000 St. Georges Stake on Martita Sangrita, owned
by Lael Stables. I sure hope they start riding her on Lentenor and Nicanor. I just think she would be a good combination for the boys.
by Lael Stables. I sure hope they start riding her on Lentenor and Nicanor. I just think she would be a good combination for the boys.
So Kim,
To me, from what your saying is Mr. Prospector was not so bad after all, his offspring went on and won major races in spite of genetic information coded in their DNA and produced some mighty great race horses.
To me, from what your saying is Mr. Prospector was not so bad after all, his offspring went on and won major races in spite of genetic information coded in their DNA and produced some mighty great race horses.
Thank you Kim. My eyes are not what they use to be. Never try to read something in Wikipedia, in the dead of night, at work, while your busy and with lack of sleep. Let me try this again:
In the year 2000,
Fusaichi Pegasas won the Kentucky Derby
In the year 1985,
Tank's Prospect won the Preakness
In the year 1979,
Conquistador Cielo won the Belmont Stakes
I double checked the stuff this time. All were sired by Mr. P.
In the year 2000,
Fusaichi Pegasas won the Kentucky Derby
In the year 1985,
Tank's Prospect won the Preakness
In the year 1979,
Conquistador Cielo won the Belmont Stakes
I double checked the stuff this time. All were sired by Mr. P.
Greg, thank you as always for your updates. I can always "read on". And Greg, for "completely selfish reasons" the boys can stay in my barn ANYTIME! If I am this excited to read about this family I can only imagine the feeling of seeing them in person!
The third picture down, Lennie shows some of his Dads color.Very muscular! Nicky is so gorgeous and handsome, didn't he win a race by 15 1/2 lengths? Nicky has seemed to like the turf. Dear Barbaro was first a turf horse, then ran on dirt. The Brothers seem like they can run on any surface. I have been amazed watching this family since Barbaro started running.
Jim Coarse, glad to hear Holy Ground had a race. I would like to hear more news about him and Man in Havana.
Diastu,yes, no whip. We all know where Nicky got his stubbornness from! If someone hit Dynaformer, he would bite them, you know, I heard he didn't even have to have anyone hit him for him to bite.
Ragsy, thank you for your concern, you know it takes a lot to keep me away. I really enjoy everyones comments.
I am also excited to hear Margano is getting ready for school, do we get pics, Greg? (hint, hint)And of course when the Jacksons will name the new filly.
Any news on La Ville Rouge?
The third picture down, Lennie shows some of his Dads color.Very muscular! Nicky is so gorgeous and handsome, didn't he win a race by 15 1/2 lengths? Nicky has seemed to like the turf. Dear Barbaro was first a turf horse, then ran on dirt. The Brothers seem like they can run on any surface. I have been amazed watching this family since Barbaro started running.
Jim Coarse, glad to hear Holy Ground had a race. I would like to hear more news about him and Man in Havana.
Diastu,yes, no whip. We all know where Nicky got his stubbornness from! If someone hit Dynaformer, he would bite them, you know, I heard he didn't even have to have anyone hit him for him to bite.
Ragsy, thank you for your concern, you know it takes a lot to keep me away. I really enjoy everyones comments.
I am also excited to hear Margano is getting ready for school, do we get pics, Greg? (hint, hint)And of course when the Jacksons will name the new filly.
Any news on La Ville Rouge?
Mr Prospector by himeself was a great sire. Inbreeding to Mr. Prospector raises warning signs, especially where leg and foot unsoundness is concerned. Continued inbreeding to the Mr. Prospector line increases the risk of health and soundness problems.
What you want to see in a horse is an outcross away from the inbred strain.
What you want to see in a horse is an outcross away from the inbred strain.
Dona, I'm just a bit offended by your comments, but since I don't know you, I will get over it. Horsefirst you are right, and I thank you.
FYI -
The Jacksons already own a Dynaformer filly, named Lookalike. She is out of a Mr Prospector mare. I have followed her for some time and fact is, she just recently had a work out.
For that reason, I wouldn't read anything into the La Ville Rouge foals sex until they say something for print. Seems they purchased the new filly on her own merit and probably with a heads up from the Dynaformer connections. There were other bidders, hence the high price.
Facts aside, try typing in the dark with a 20lb cat vying for your attention. It causes spelling errors, I know that for a fact!
Mary, I am deeply offended that you have continually dissed Mr P. on this blog, knowing that he is so prominent in the pedegree of the Barbaro brothers. It just doesn't make any sense. Your comment "thank goodness the new filly is not of the Mr P. line" is especiallly offensive considering who the new owners are. As I said, Lookalike is owned by the Jacksons and comes from the very line you have such disdain for. I cringe at the possibility of the Jacksons reading such comments in a blog about their colts. If you can't understand that, I feel sorry for you.
The Jacksons already own a Dynaformer filly, named Lookalike. She is out of a Mr Prospector mare. I have followed her for some time and fact is, she just recently had a work out.
For that reason, I wouldn't read anything into the La Ville Rouge foals sex until they say something for print. Seems they purchased the new filly on her own merit and probably with a heads up from the Dynaformer connections. There were other bidders, hence the high price.
Facts aside, try typing in the dark with a 20lb cat vying for your attention. It causes spelling errors, I know that for a fact!
Mary, I am deeply offended that you have continually dissed Mr P. on this blog, knowing that he is so prominent in the pedegree of the Barbaro brothers. It just doesn't make any sense. Your comment "thank goodness the new filly is not of the Mr P. line" is especiallly offensive considering who the new owners are. As I said, Lookalike is owned by the Jacksons and comes from the very line you have such disdain for. I cringe at the possibility of the Jacksons reading such comments in a blog about their colts. If you can't understand that, I feel sorry for you.
Dona,
It is not rude to tell the truth about a horse. It is not rude to have an opinion about a bloodline. It is not "dissing" the brothers to point out the facts about Mr. Prospector and his get. And I'm quite sure the Jackson's are very versed in the history of those lines and know the problems that can come from them. Carson City, son of Mr. Prospector, is the sire of La Ville Rouge and therefore, a grandsire of the brothers.
In this day, it's hard to find something without at least one cross of MR. P. So it does not surprise me that they have another one.
If you do the brother's justice, you don't advocate blinkers for the public about their breeding. You have the hard facts, accept them, and move on to correct. Mr. P adds brilliance and speed, but it comes with a cost. The brother's breeding shows a lot of thought and care about the outcome. It's a balancing act.
The Jackson's and Mill Ridge have done a good thing taking LVR to Dynaformer, instead of a stallion that had MR. P. It's called selection for the traits you want and selection to fix those traits you don't want. Princequillo was known as a leg fixer.
You can't dodge the FACTS about Mr. P's progeny. To be truthful is better than denial. It is no more offensive than to admit that Dynaformer generally throws slow to mature horses that generally prefer the turf and that some might inherit a bit of his attitude. I haven't heard anyone calling it "dissing" when talking about Dynaformer.
It is not rude to tell the truth about a horse. It is not rude to have an opinion about a bloodline. It is not "dissing" the brothers to point out the facts about Mr. Prospector and his get. And I'm quite sure the Jackson's are very versed in the history of those lines and know the problems that can come from them. Carson City, son of Mr. Prospector, is the sire of La Ville Rouge and therefore, a grandsire of the brothers.
In this day, it's hard to find something without at least one cross of MR. P. So it does not surprise me that they have another one.
If you do the brother's justice, you don't advocate blinkers for the public about their breeding. You have the hard facts, accept them, and move on to correct. Mr. P adds brilliance and speed, but it comes with a cost. The brother's breeding shows a lot of thought and care about the outcome. It's a balancing act.
The Jackson's and Mill Ridge have done a good thing taking LVR to Dynaformer, instead of a stallion that had MR. P. It's called selection for the traits you want and selection to fix those traits you don't want. Princequillo was known as a leg fixer.
You can't dodge the FACTS about Mr. P's progeny. To be truthful is better than denial. It is no more offensive than to admit that Dynaformer generally throws slow to mature horses that generally prefer the turf and that some might inherit a bit of his attitude. I haven't heard anyone calling it "dissing" when talking about Dynaformer.
DONA
You see MARY suffers from the "JON" disease Like him can't come on here without taking shots at something.
You see MARY suffers from the "JON" disease Like him can't come on here without taking shots at something.
I see Dona's point. You're on a blog about Barbaro's brothers that are already here and not some intended breeding scenario and you want to discuss something about their breeding background. Isn't that what The Five-Cross blog is about? Seems to me being a fan of the brothers is accepting their pedegree, knowing the limitations that may or maynot be possible and getting on with life! Dona, I'm afraid you can't win this argument, some people just have to pour salt on a wound and kick little puppys. People are funny and I mean that not in a funny way.
Horsefirst - I don't know where you think the Jacksons are going but it's well know they are very keen on the Roberto/Mr Prospector line and Princequillo was not a good broodmare sire. Leastwise nothing that compares to Mr Prospector. Someone needs to get their facts straight and it's not Dona!
Was Mr Prospector over bred for the industry? Hey, he's been gone now for sometime. Ain't it a little late? The brothers are the brothers, love em or leave em but spare us your expertise!
Horsefirst - I don't know where you think the Jacksons are going but it's well know they are very keen on the Roberto/Mr Prospector line and Princequillo was not a good broodmare sire. Leastwise nothing that compares to Mr Prospector. Someone needs to get their facts straight and it's not Dona!
Was Mr Prospector over bred for the industry? Hey, he's been gone now for sometime. Ain't it a little late? The brothers are the brothers, love em or leave em but spare us your expertise!
You're right Mike and I'm giving up and moving on! Besides, I'm going to be very busy trying to contact Sheihk Hamdan and George Bolton. Seems George Bolton spent $500,000 for a turf loving, slow to mature colt with a bad attitude by Dynaformer and Sheihk Hamdan of Shadwell farm threw $1 million dollars out for a ridgling colt by Smart Strike, son of Mr Prospector! The ridgling underbidder was Bob Baffert, no less. Time is money and these people have got to be warned! Not to worry people, I'm Johnny on it!
FYI,
Nicanor had a work yesterday at Fair Hill. He worked three furlongs in 36:20 seconds on the fast dirt track, listed as breezing. First out of four that worked.
Nicanor had a work yesterday at Fair Hill. He worked three furlongs in 36:20 seconds on the fast dirt track, listed as breezing. First out of four that worked.
Hey Sandieh
good to see you back..the brothers are simply stunning, I just love reading these folks thoughts on Mr. Prospector and Sherry has it right gotto love em or leave em, and nows the time. too many folks have been run off from to much expertise over the past 1-2 years..
good to see you back..the brothers are simply stunning, I just love reading these folks thoughts on Mr. Prospector and Sherry has it right gotto love em or leave em, and nows the time. too many folks have been run off from to much expertise over the past 1-2 years..
Uh, Sherry, Princequillo was known as one of the ultimate broodmare sires. He's the sire of Somethingroyal, the dam of Secretariat, so he is Secretariat's dam sire and one of Seretariat's grandsires. Really poor horses like A.P. Indy carry Secretariat in their pedigrees. Secretariat was a gold mine as a broodmare sire, just like Princequillo.
That is a case of crossing brilliant (Bold Ruler- who was arthritic) over stamina (Princequillo).
I guess Princequillo was such a bad broodmare sire that we should not have had a Secretariat.
Go ahead Donna, tell them where your got YOUR breeding information about the LVR/Dynaformer cross- (Hey,it was actually from Headly Bell at Mill Ridge where, uh, LVR lives. I had another post detailing and giving quotes and links that must have not been posted)
Go ahead, warn them about MR. Prospector lines. Note that I said you don't want too many crosses of it and who it comes down through is important. But anyone in the industry, if being honest, would tell you you have to be careful with the MR. P's.
I also said that it was a good thing to take LVR to Dynaformer, for the exact reasons they did. I also said it's very hard to get away from the MR.P blood now, so any outcross possibilities would be icing on the cake.
And gee, you can't see the compliment in the Jackson's getting the filly with no Mr. P? Well, here's another woo hooo- there's no Northern Dancer in their, either. The Jackson's have a potential gold mine in this filly, IF she runs and IF she produces well. Because what the TB really needs right now are outcross lines.
But somehow, my excitement over this FOR the Jackson's has been twisted into anti-anti. Other people can express joy over the Jackson's purchase. But those who point out WHY this is potentially so good, are not welcome.
That is a case of crossing brilliant (Bold Ruler- who was arthritic) over stamina (Princequillo).
I guess Princequillo was such a bad broodmare sire that we should not have had a Secretariat.
Go ahead Donna, tell them where your got YOUR breeding information about the LVR/Dynaformer cross- (Hey,it was actually from Headly Bell at Mill Ridge where, uh, LVR lives. I had another post detailing and giving quotes and links that must have not been posted)
Go ahead, warn them about MR. Prospector lines. Note that I said you don't want too many crosses of it and who it comes down through is important. But anyone in the industry, if being honest, would tell you you have to be careful with the MR. P's.
I also said that it was a good thing to take LVR to Dynaformer, for the exact reasons they did. I also said it's very hard to get away from the MR.P blood now, so any outcross possibilities would be icing on the cake.
And gee, you can't see the compliment in the Jackson's getting the filly with no Mr. P? Well, here's another woo hooo- there's no Northern Dancer in their, either. The Jackson's have a potential gold mine in this filly, IF she runs and IF she produces well. Because what the TB really needs right now are outcross lines.
But somehow, my excitement over this FOR the Jackson's has been twisted into anti-anti. Other people can express joy over the Jackson's purchase. But those who point out WHY this is potentially so good, are not welcome.
Sherry, you must be kidding, Princequillo was one of the greatest broodmare sires of all time. He was the leading broodmare sire from 1966-1970 and again in 1972 & 1973. He was a horse of great endurance and won many races at longer distances. He broke the Saratoga race course record for
1 3/4 miles.
He is considered to be, with the exception of Kelso, the best long distance runner in American racing history.
He passed on these great qualities to his daughter, Somethingroyal, dam of Secretariat.
He sired many, many, many stakes winners and was the sire of Misty Morn and Quill, two champion fillies.
I could go on and on, but I won't.
This board has taken a turn for the not so nice. Everyone has a right to their opinion, but everything that I have said about Princequillo are not opinions, they are facts.
1 3/4 miles.
He is considered to be, with the exception of Kelso, the best long distance runner in American racing history.
He passed on these great qualities to his daughter, Somethingroyal, dam of Secretariat.
He sired many, many, many stakes winners and was the sire of Misty Morn and Quill, two champion fillies.
I could go on and on, but I won't.
This board has taken a turn for the not so nice. Everyone has a right to their opinion, but everything that I have said about Princequillo are not opinions, they are facts.
Horsefirst, everything that you said is right on. Thank you.
"Can't we all just get along?"
This discussion of pedigree and lineage and the traits therein is
really interesting for those of us less knowledgeable. Let's not censor anybody on this topic, please. this is after all a "Bloodhorse" blog. I for one, am here, in part to learn.
This discussion of pedigree and lineage and the traits therein is
really interesting for those of us less knowledgeable. Let's not censor anybody on this topic, please. this is after all a "Bloodhorse" blog. I for one, am here, in part to learn.
Really good work from Nicanor today.
Date: September 15, 2010
Track: FAIR HILL
Distance: Three Furlongs
Time: 36:20 Breezing
Track Condition: Fast
Surface: Dirt
Rank: 1/4
Date: September 15, 2010
Track: FAIR HILL
Distance: Three Furlongs
Time: 36:20 Breezing
Track Condition: Fast
Surface: Dirt
Rank: 1/4
Okay since "the Brothers B" have Princequillo in their pedigree via La Ville Rouge's dam's La Reine Rouge side, how does that help them become the stakes winner I know they all can be?
We all know Mr. Prospector and some of his descendents are known winners on the track. I wouldn't have screwed up one of my blog replies this week had I read the long list of winners a bit more carefully. What do you believe are the good traits of Mr. P. the brothers possess?
Although it might be too rough for some, I am enjoying the education lesson I am receiving from Horsefirst and Dona or if you prefer Dona and Horsefirst.
Having said that, people really need to be kinder in their remarks. I again thank Kim for being kind inre to my flub from yesterday. People have every right to their opinions, but please be thoughtful and kind. I can handle the gruff remarks, but a lot of people can't.
We all know Mr. Prospector and some of his descendents are known winners on the track. I wouldn't have screwed up one of my blog replies this week had I read the long list of winners a bit more carefully. What do you believe are the good traits of Mr. P. the brothers possess?
Although it might be too rough for some, I am enjoying the education lesson I am receiving from Horsefirst and Dona or if you prefer Dona and Horsefirst.
Having said that, people really need to be kinder in their remarks. I again thank Kim for being kind inre to my flub from yesterday. People have every right to their opinions, but please be thoughtful and kind. I can handle the gruff remarks, but a lot of people can't.
Funny how people deliberately spell someones name wrong like it was a line in the dust!!!
Since when is a slow maturing horse a bad thing? You mean like Zenyatta?
I'm not a Princequillo fan and he may have been a broodmare sire but only Mr Prospector had a near perfect 10 year straight run as THE #1 maternal grandsire broken only by Dixieland Band in 2004. That's a proven fact.
Thanks Barry for the information about Martita Sangrita. I went to the Delaware Park web site, enrolled in their free membership and got to watch the video of her win. You're right, Rosie rode her perfectly and I do hope she gets the ride on Nicanor and Lentenor. I think she really fits Nicanor and believe he will perform for her.
You'r right Greg, got the notice of Nicanor's workout this morning and it looks he's ready for bear!
Since when is a slow maturing horse a bad thing? You mean like Zenyatta?
I'm not a Princequillo fan and he may have been a broodmare sire but only Mr Prospector had a near perfect 10 year straight run as THE #1 maternal grandsire broken only by Dixieland Band in 2004. That's a proven fact.
Thanks Barry for the information about Martita Sangrita. I went to the Delaware Park web site, enrolled in their free membership and got to watch the video of her win. You're right, Rosie rode her perfectly and I do hope she gets the ride on Nicanor and Lentenor. I think she really fits Nicanor and believe he will perform for her.
You'r right Greg, got the notice of Nicanor's workout this morning and it looks he's ready for bear!
Zenyatta and Blame are 1st cousins through Mr. Prospector. Can't get any better than that.
News article just in from the bloodhorse, Sheikh Hamdan wants slow maturing grass types, feels they're underrated by the American racing industry. Poor Dynaformer finally getting his due now that his stallion career is waning!
News article just in from the bloodhorse, Sheikh Hamdan wants slow maturing grass types, feels they're underrated by the American racing industry. Poor Dynaformer finally getting his due now that his stallion career is waning!
OOOOPPPPSSSSSS -
I meant to say Zenyatta and Blame are 1st cousins through Roberto, sire of Dynaformer.
Not my fault, all this talk about Mr P.
Zenyatta is by a grandson of Mr Prospector out of a daughter of Kris S. and Blame is by a son of Kris S. out of a granddaughter of Mr P.
See it all comes together, the cross of Roberto and Mr Prospector makes for some amazing horseflesh. Barbaro's brothers are something special not only for themselves but through their pedegree.
I meant to say Zenyatta and Blame are 1st cousins through Roberto, sire of Dynaformer.
Not my fault, all this talk about Mr P.
Zenyatta is by a grandson of Mr Prospector out of a daughter of Kris S. and Blame is by a son of Kris S. out of a granddaughter of Mr P.
See it all comes together, the cross of Roberto and Mr Prospector makes for some amazing horseflesh. Barbaro's brothers are something special not only for themselves but through their pedegree.
For those who really want to know, and this author does not spare other TB lines, either:
Pt.1 (Potential effects of tracks, etc)
www.opencomputing.ca/.../Puzzle%20of%20many%20pieces.pdf
Pt.2 (Effects of bloodlines)
www.opencomputing.ca/.../Corruption%20of%20a%20legacy.pdf
This guy really changed my thinking on the loss of durability in the American TB, i.e., that the Europeons may not be sounder, they just can run lighter boned yet heavier horses because they don't run on dirt.
Something was really beginning to be familiar with the whole sale protecting of MR. Prospector, sire line Native Dancer, on this blog. We've been here before:
cs.bloodhorse.com/.../nicanor-s-back-to-work.aspx
You have to read through but it's obvious that Donna will take the head of anyone that does not idolize Native Dancer. Sorry Donna, there's just too much out there and too much evidence in the offspring. If you know anything about conformation, you can see in the photo of Native Dancer those short, upright pasterns. Even when looking at a riding horse, that is something you don't want as it predisposes to lameness. He was fired for osselets and that's and indication his lower legs were taking a beating because there isn't enough flex with short pasterns.
(You can even read me in this blog thinking Nicanor might make a sire- but time has a way of showing that it might not be. He's still a mystery to me and I love that face!)
Also in this past blog, a lot of it got taken up with other things besides the brothers and no one tried to exorcize people off the blog so they couldn't say things someone doesn't like.
It's OK to idolize a certain horse. It's not OK to be nasty to people who point out the flaws.
Mr. P in a line will add brilliance. Too much is asking for trouble. Trying to stay away from it is hard to do now. I think the Jackson's are well aware of that and look to be balancing the pedigrees.
I am entranced by their new purchase even though she carries Shenanigans (Dam of Ruffian) in the fourth. That's far enough back. She's an outcross with no dupes that I see until the 6th, and there it's Nearco and Hyperion. I read somewhere that for stamina, you want the dupes in something like the 4th through the 10th generations. Can't wait to see if this filly runs long! Yay for the Jacksons!
Pt.1 (Potential effects of tracks, etc)
www.opencomputing.ca/.../Puzzle%20of%20many%20pieces.pdf
Pt.2 (Effects of bloodlines)
www.opencomputing.ca/.../Corruption%20of%20a%20legacy.pdf
This guy really changed my thinking on the loss of durability in the American TB, i.e., that the Europeons may not be sounder, they just can run lighter boned yet heavier horses because they don't run on dirt.
Something was really beginning to be familiar with the whole sale protecting of MR. Prospector, sire line Native Dancer, on this blog. We've been here before:
cs.bloodhorse.com/.../nicanor-s-back-to-work.aspx
You have to read through but it's obvious that Donna will take the head of anyone that does not idolize Native Dancer. Sorry Donna, there's just too much out there and too much evidence in the offspring. If you know anything about conformation, you can see in the photo of Native Dancer those short, upright pasterns. Even when looking at a riding horse, that is something you don't want as it predisposes to lameness. He was fired for osselets and that's and indication his lower legs were taking a beating because there isn't enough flex with short pasterns.
(You can even read me in this blog thinking Nicanor might make a sire- but time has a way of showing that it might not be. He's still a mystery to me and I love that face!)
Also in this past blog, a lot of it got taken up with other things besides the brothers and no one tried to exorcize people off the blog so they couldn't say things someone doesn't like.
It's OK to idolize a certain horse. It's not OK to be nasty to people who point out the flaws.
Mr. P in a line will add brilliance. Too much is asking for trouble. Trying to stay away from it is hard to do now. I think the Jackson's are well aware of that and look to be balancing the pedigrees.
I am entranced by their new purchase even though she carries Shenanigans (Dam of Ruffian) in the fourth. That's far enough back. She's an outcross with no dupes that I see until the 6th, and there it's Nearco and Hyperion. I read somewhere that for stamina, you want the dupes in something like the 4th through the 10th generations. Can't wait to see if this filly runs long! Yay for the Jacksons!
Yeah Princequillo was a prince, according to Top 100 Racehorses he was standing for $250 and couldn't fill his book until Chenery sent his mares to him and Hill Prince was foaled. His pedegree was his strength not his race record. He went from a cheap claimer to winning the Jockey Gold Cup but he's not even rated in the top 100 so it seems a stretch to say with the exception of Kelso! Princequillo couldn't see John Henry's behind at any distance, or Swaps or the great Round Table who matched the world record at 1 1/4 miles on the turf carring 130lbs, won the Hollywood Gold Cup matching Swaps' track record of 1:58 1/2 at 10 furlongs and the fastest time ever for a three year at that distance. and no way would he compare with Native Dancer, grandsire of Mr P. who narrowly lost the Derby for the Tripple Crown, his only defeat.
Like it has been said MANY,MANY, MANY times before on this blog, everyone is entitled to their own opinions. But, me as a regular reader on this blog it is getting VERY OLD reading comments that are rude and meanspirited. PLEASE, PLEASE stop this bickering back and forth. If you don't agree with someone, get over it and move on. I love reading all the information some of you are writing about here so please don't stop that, just stop all the one-uping that is going on.
Now that Ive said my 2 cents worth you can jump on me if you must.
Now that Ive said my 2 cents worth you can jump on me if you must.
Hey Lou In Texas
Dont stop'em now, no, I am getting quite an education here...keep it up girls, let'er spin and spill'er the way it falls....tell your stories!!!
y the most fun i have had in a long time....hope Sandieh is getting an earfull....
Dont stop'em now, no, I am getting quite an education here...keep it up girls, let'er spin and spill'er the way it falls....tell your stories!!!
y the most fun i have had in a long time....hope Sandieh is getting an earfull....
Barb, on the bottom side of Zenyatta's pedigree is a Princequillo mare, Sharp Queeen. Kris S. sire is Roberto and his dam is Sharp Queen. Kris S. is the grandsire of Zenyatta.
Princequillo was an important source of stamina. He corrected leg problems and gave soundness to his offspring.
Sherry, Round Table's sire was Princequillo. I don't care what his stud fee was, it skyrocketed after he started producing stakes winners.
When I do a "google" I see where you are getting your information, but for some reason, your leaving out the full story. That's okay, I understand.
I'm not knocking Mr. Prospector, great horse.
Princequillo was an important source of stamina. He corrected leg problems and gave soundness to his offspring.
Sherry, Round Table's sire was Princequillo. I don't care what his stud fee was, it skyrocketed after he started producing stakes winners.
When I do a "google" I see where you are getting your information, but for some reason, your leaving out the full story. That's okay, I understand.
I'm not knocking Mr. Prospector, great horse.
Greg, good to hear about Nicky, could this be in prep for an upcoming race? Hope so, and I hear Lennie is running on 09/25. I would just love to take an up close picture of the boys.
I hope that LaVille Rouge is ok, and our new Babynor to, when are we expecting? I was so excited Margano was born on my birthday, I get to celebrate for two...I had carrot cake....
Ragsy, you KNOW we love them. We have been here for a few years since the start of the blogg, I always try to keep an open mind with respect to everyones opion, however, it seems like there are personal diggs here in some entries, but for the most part, we all share the same interest.
Mike Relva, you noticed that to?
Since reading this blog from the beginning I have gained a lot of knowledge, both from Bloodhorse and fellow bloggers, I am grateful everyday for this opportunity. I will not be critical of anyone's opion, even if I don't agee. This is how we learn, and I so appreciate that (what I always say) the Jackson family shares the news on what is "surely so dear" to them and through the Brothers we are allowed to keep alive the memory of Barbaro and to watch his siblings grow and develope into racehorses.
I hope that LaVille Rouge is ok, and our new Babynor to, when are we expecting? I was so excited Margano was born on my birthday, I get to celebrate for two...I had carrot cake....
Ragsy, you KNOW we love them. We have been here for a few years since the start of the blogg, I always try to keep an open mind with respect to everyones opion, however, it seems like there are personal diggs here in some entries, but for the most part, we all share the same interest.
Mike Relva, you noticed that to?
Since reading this blog from the beginning I have gained a lot of knowledge, both from Bloodhorse and fellow bloggers, I am grateful everyday for this opportunity. I will not be critical of anyone's opion, even if I don't agee. This is how we learn, and I so appreciate that (what I always say) the Jackson family shares the news on what is "surely so dear" to them and through the Brothers we are allowed to keep alive the memory of Barbaro and to watch his siblings grow and develope into racehorses.
Ragsy, Holler! I surely had to laugh at that one, my smile for today! And it is educational!
Mary,
Kris S. is the "maternal" grandsire of Zenyatta. The grandsire is Machiavellian, son of Mr. Prospector.
Yeah, I left a lot out about Princequillo, like how Bull Hancock didn't want him but was reassured/pressured by Horatio Luro to let him stand at Claiborne. That's according to Joe Hirsch of The Dailey Racing Form. Like Sherry said, it was his pedegree not his race record. Hancock considered him just another heavy staminia type until Luro claimed he could sprint. That's what convinced Hancock to stand him. Speed always wins out.
Kris S. is the "maternal" grandsire of Zenyatta. The grandsire is Machiavellian, son of Mr. Prospector.
Yeah, I left a lot out about Princequillo, like how Bull Hancock didn't want him but was reassured/pressured by Horatio Luro to let him stand at Claiborne. That's according to Joe Hirsch of The Dailey Racing Form. Like Sherry said, it was his pedegree not his race record. Hancock considered him just another heavy staminia type until Luro claimed he could sprint. That's what convinced Hancock to stand him. Speed always wins out.
Horsefirst, the name is Dona, get something right, won't you?
As far as my pedegree information, I read an article by Robert Clark about his introduction to Barbaro thru Anne Peters before Barbaro's Florida Derby win. etc, etc, etc.
It seems Robert and Anne were puting together a pedegree analysis book about really special racehorses complete with pictures by Clark, and Anne mentioned her association through Three Chimineys with a 2yr old that was really special, Barbaro. Anne urged Robert to go to Florida and see for himself this amazing colt. According to Robert Clark untill then, he had never seen or heard of Barbaro.
I quoted Anne Peters regarding the Dynaformer/La Ville Rouge mating for bone and scope and also said Headley Bell reiterated that same statment in a video with Amanda Duckworth. Some several years later, I might add. Now, just what are you questioning? The fact that I knew why Dynaformer with his Roberto connection was choosen? That I knew the Jacksons really liked the Roberto/Mr Prospector cross? Did I see the man on the grassy knoll? Did I hear a second gun go off? What?
As far as my pedegree information, I read an article by Robert Clark about his introduction to Barbaro thru Anne Peters before Barbaro's Florida Derby win. etc, etc, etc.
It seems Robert and Anne were puting together a pedegree analysis book about really special racehorses complete with pictures by Clark, and Anne mentioned her association through Three Chimineys with a 2yr old that was really special, Barbaro. Anne urged Robert to go to Florida and see for himself this amazing colt. According to Robert Clark untill then, he had never seen or heard of Barbaro.
I quoted Anne Peters regarding the Dynaformer/La Ville Rouge mating for bone and scope and also said Headley Bell reiterated that same statment in a video with Amanda Duckworth. Some several years later, I might add. Now, just what are you questioning? The fact that I knew why Dynaformer with his Roberto connection was choosen? That I knew the Jacksons really liked the Roberto/Mr Prospector cross? Did I see the man on the grassy knoll? Did I hear a second gun go off? What?
Mary, my appologies. I thought you were addressing me about Princequillo and saw red! I didn't see Sherry's name on the paragraph. Never mind(smile)
I want to apologize for getting snarky in some of my last comments. I generally manage to ignore snarks at my posts but when information is not presented correctly or is given to some agenda, then I have a hard time holding back.
Several of my replies have not been posted here so lots of information has been lost. In one of those I did say that we have been down this road before and it had to do with idolizing Native Dancer who has been sourced back to soundness problems via Raise A Native and Mr. Prospector.
For what it's worth, almost no reputable breeder in the industry would put down Princequillo as has been done on this blog. Please note what Anne Peters, who has been mentioned before in this blog, had to say about him (after the following links):
Princequillo
www.diamondjfarms.com/prince.html
www.thoroughbredtimes.com/.../princequillo.pdf
www.tbheritage.com/.../Family1.html
Princequillo b.c. 1940
(Prince Rose - Cosquilla)
Won 12 of 33 starts in the U.S., including the Jockey Club Gold Cup, the Saratoga Handicap, the Citizens' Handicap. Leading Sire in the U.S. in 1957-58, and Leading Sire of Broodmares in the U.S. 8 times, his many successful progeny included Round Table, Dedicate, Prince John, Misty Morn, Quill, Hill Prince, Somethingroyal. A recognized source of stamina and soundness.
*What experts say about linebreeding to Princequillo -
"In my opinion, inbreeding to Princequillo is one of the best things you can do to get that foundation for stamina and soundness."
Anne Peters, co-author: Patterns of Greatness II, the Americans.
I hope that people who read this blog and want to learn more, Google these horses and read about them.
And I would hope that in the process of education, people take the opportunity to look beyond what's posted here and discover more about TB bloodlines.
I am still very excited about the Jackson's new filly. She's now part of the family too, at least, that'w what's been said before on here about non-barbaro brother horses owned by the Jackson's. I am very happy for the Jackson's.
I hope this post isn't lost like two or three others of mine seem to be.
Several of my replies have not been posted here so lots of information has been lost. In one of those I did say that we have been down this road before and it had to do with idolizing Native Dancer who has been sourced back to soundness problems via Raise A Native and Mr. Prospector.
For what it's worth, almost no reputable breeder in the industry would put down Princequillo as has been done on this blog. Please note what Anne Peters, who has been mentioned before in this blog, had to say about him (after the following links):
Princequillo
www.diamondjfarms.com/prince.html
www.thoroughbredtimes.com/.../princequillo.pdf
www.tbheritage.com/.../Family1.html
Princequillo b.c. 1940
(Prince Rose - Cosquilla)
Won 12 of 33 starts in the U.S., including the Jockey Club Gold Cup, the Saratoga Handicap, the Citizens' Handicap. Leading Sire in the U.S. in 1957-58, and Leading Sire of Broodmares in the U.S. 8 times, his many successful progeny included Round Table, Dedicate, Prince John, Misty Morn, Quill, Hill Prince, Somethingroyal. A recognized source of stamina and soundness.
*What experts say about linebreeding to Princequillo -
"In my opinion, inbreeding to Princequillo is one of the best things you can do to get that foundation for stamina and soundness."
Anne Peters, co-author: Patterns of Greatness II, the Americans.
I hope that people who read this blog and want to learn more, Google these horses and read about them.
And I would hope that in the process of education, people take the opportunity to look beyond what's posted here and discover more about TB bloodlines.
I am still very excited about the Jackson's new filly. She's now part of the family too, at least, that'w what's been said before on here about non-barbaro brother horses owned by the Jackson's. I am very happy for the Jackson's.
I hope this post isn't lost like two or three others of mine seem to be.
THIS IS FUNNY!!!!!
HEAR YE, HEAR YE. I found the answer and let this be the end of it! Everybody go to "Prominent Sire Lines In America 2010". click on the chart to enlarge it and Lo and Behold the truth shall set you free! You need a magnifier to see Princequillo's name and notice the small space he takes up with with his influence/desendants.
NOW, notice the Mr. Prospector space, it's huge! Completely revamped from the year 2000 (Scott Dudley does this every 10 years) and in fact a new sire line has been added. Yep, from the Mr Prospector line, it's Fappanio.
For those of you that have never seen this before it's a chart of the most influential sires, their offspring and if you want to understand something more about pedegrees and how the most important sire lines are created, this is for you! Would really be striking if you can find a chart and compare the two. 2000 and 2010, that is. I have a chart haning in my home and just remembered seeing an add for the new 2010 and walla! Now, can we give it a rest, this Princello thing? Long live Mr P.
HEAR YE, HEAR YE. I found the answer and let this be the end of it! Everybody go to "Prominent Sire Lines In America 2010". click on the chart to enlarge it and Lo and Behold the truth shall set you free! You need a magnifier to see Princequillo's name and notice the small space he takes up with with his influence/desendants.
NOW, notice the Mr. Prospector space, it's huge! Completely revamped from the year 2000 (Scott Dudley does this every 10 years) and in fact a new sire line has been added. Yep, from the Mr Prospector line, it's Fappanio.
For those of you that have never seen this before it's a chart of the most influential sires, their offspring and if you want to understand something more about pedegrees and how the most important sire lines are created, this is for you! Would really be striking if you can find a chart and compare the two. 2000 and 2010, that is. I have a chart haning in my home and just remembered seeing an add for the new 2010 and walla! Now, can we give it a rest, this Princello thing? Long live Mr P.
Barb, Zenyatta's pedigree, like I said has Princequillo on the bottom side of her pedigree, through his daughter Sharp Queen. Zenyatta's stamina comes from the Princequillo line. I'm done with this craziness. Go Nicanor, Lentenor, love them both. Now, I'm going to watch my Barbaro DVD and watch all of his races like I have done so many times before. Love all of you. Goodnight.
Horsefirst,
What are the "FACTS"? While many people ranging from respected bloodstock agents to casual fans, would tell you that you could compromise durabilty concerning Mr. Prospector lineage, there is ZERO statistical evidence to consider it a fact. It is all anectdotal. I happen to agree with the analysis, personally; but since there are so many crosses and strains of his progeny, there would be no integrity of any data. Besides, there are reknowned agents such as Buzz Chace, who don't agree the Prospector line is any more fragile than lines without him. Chace specifically sights Carson City for soundness due to his wide rear base. There are too many confound variables for fair analysis. Since many Prospector lines-especially Unbridled Song, Smart Strike, Elusive Quality have so many Juvenille starters and many on dirt, and the Roberto's (Dynaformer, Arch) have fewer starters at two, since many like you say they are slow maturing, and are geared toward turf wouldn't training methodolgy, development, and potentially surface contribute as much or more than bloodstock itself to overall durability??? There is no data (minor injuries to breakdowns occur during races, breezes, gallops and jogging), and no facts, just opinions.
What are the "FACTS"? While many people ranging from respected bloodstock agents to casual fans, would tell you that you could compromise durabilty concerning Mr. Prospector lineage, there is ZERO statistical evidence to consider it a fact. It is all anectdotal. I happen to agree with the analysis, personally; but since there are so many crosses and strains of his progeny, there would be no integrity of any data. Besides, there are reknowned agents such as Buzz Chace, who don't agree the Prospector line is any more fragile than lines without him. Chace specifically sights Carson City for soundness due to his wide rear base. There are too many confound variables for fair analysis. Since many Prospector lines-especially Unbridled Song, Smart Strike, Elusive Quality have so many Juvenille starters and many on dirt, and the Roberto's (Dynaformer, Arch) have fewer starters at two, since many like you say they are slow maturing, and are geared toward turf wouldn't training methodolgy, development, and potentially surface contribute as much or more than bloodstock itself to overall durability??? There is no data (minor injuries to breakdowns occur during races, breezes, gallops and jogging), and no facts, just opinions.
Sherry, that chart is at the Lexington Airport. It's tiled on the rotunda floor. I laughed when you said there's a new one, how are they going to change that one. lol
This discussion has been interesting and educational -- but a bit of a left turn from the original post. I looked again at the pictures of Nicanor above, with his head up, clearly not happy with what was happening. I just hope a jockey can be found (Rosie?) who will stop fighting with this horse and let him run the way he is happiest and does best -- or he may not want to run at all (at least on a racetrack). That is a lose/lose for us all.
Hey GregJ
Have you read/seen an update on the jockey that received a severed spinal column in a racing accident? Seems like it was in California, a gruesome injury seems like his last name Solas or something like that.I thought Bloodhorse.com would have an update but I cant find it....
this jockey needs our prayers and support at this time...
Have you read/seen an update on the jockey that received a severed spinal column in a racing accident? Seems like it was in California, a gruesome injury seems like his last name Solas or something like that.I thought Bloodhorse.com would have an update but I cant find it....
this jockey needs our prayers and support at this time...
I've been meaning to ask this but keep getting diverted. In the 3rd photo, what does Lentenor have on his hooves???
Sandieh and Lou In Texas
What these wonderful people have taught us is a fact that we have always known : Barbaro and the Brothers are Royalty.
Thank you for an inspiring,kind and intelligent debate....
What these wonderful people have taught us is a fact that we have always known : Barbaro and the Brothers are Royalty.
Thank you for an inspiring,kind and intelligent debate....
Hey FOB's the ladies on ABR have come up with a really cool, new Barbaro shirt. Check it out on
ABR "FOB TSHIRTS - any interest any more" go to post 146. There is a pic of it there.
The price hasn't been decided yet but it depends on how many people would like one. Part of the money goes to a charity, yet to be decided. Go check it out.
ABR "FOB TSHIRTS - any interest any more" go to post 146. There is a pic of it there.
The price hasn't been decided yet but it depends on how many people would like one. Part of the money goes to a charity, yet to be decided. Go check it out.
OK folks, there have been three or four of my responses that have not been put on this blog, with research and sources, considering the Mr. P angle. One cannot conduct an honest debate when one's responses are not put up while others are allowed to wail away.
I even sent one apologizing for my (one) snarky response to snarky responses to my posts. That never got posted here, either.
brettzky99, there is a chart of number of runners, how long they run, for sires. That never got posted, either.
In the same article with that chart, is a very good history of the decline in durability that changed my thinking about U.S. racehorse durability vs. Europeon. That never got posted, either.
Go ahead Greg, put this one up, because the selectivity in what is now posted on this bog is tilting one way. That will drive away honest debate and people who really have knowledge about horses.
And I am still, as I have said in my posts that never saw the light of day on this blog, excited for the Jackson's with this new filly.
I even sent one apologizing for my (one) snarky response to snarky responses to my posts. That never got posted here, either.
brettzky99, there is a chart of number of runners, how long they run, for sires. That never got posted, either.
In the same article with that chart, is a very good history of the decline in durability that changed my thinking about U.S. racehorse durability vs. Europeon. That never got posted, either.
Go ahead Greg, put this one up, because the selectivity in what is now posted on this bog is tilting one way. That will drive away honest debate and people who really have knowledge about horses.
And I am still, as I have said in my posts that never saw the light of day on this blog, excited for the Jackson's with this new filly.
Horsefirst,
FYI, I have published EVERY comment on this blog. I just went back and looked through every comment, I didn't overlook any, ALL published. Honestly, have NO clue where your comments went. I have enjoyed the debate so far, would have loved to have read what you wrote.
FYI, I have published EVERY comment on this blog. I just went back and looked through every comment, I didn't overlook any, ALL published. Honestly, have NO clue where your comments went. I have enjoyed the debate so far, would have loved to have read what you wrote.
Horsefirst, please repost. I love your comments, very informative. I wondered where you had gone. I got involved in a little debate over the Mr. P line, and while it was going on, I was hoping that you would post something to help me out. This is fun, really.
Repost, please. Greg would never not post your comments, something just went wrong, a computer problem I guess.
Repost, please. Greg would never not post your comments, something just went wrong, a computer problem I guess.
Plucky Liege, one of the most important broodmares of the 20th century; the great producer. Plucky Liege is predominant in LaVille Rouge's pedigree. No doubt, Barbaro was his mother's son. Dynaformer just fertilized the seed, LOL. Just trying to lighten things up on this beautiful Friday night.
This debate has been instructive and extremely interesting. Have not drawn any conclusions because I don't have the background or the knowledge to draw conclusions, but this part of horseracing is perhaps what interests me most -- pedigrees and bloodlines, and breeding. More, please.
Horsefirst,
There is plenty of data which exhibits the number of starts of progeny by sire. However, since the Mr. Prospector line of Raise a Native accounts for more than 70% of starters in the US (based on 5x5 pedigree), and he is arguably more prominent as a broodmare sire, than a sire (his record as a broodmare sire is better), the chart is really irrelevant to my point. The point is that even if there was relevant data to show the fragility of Mr. Prospector offspring (which there isn't), the general acceptance that his progeny allegedly show the speed and brilliance early in development, the propensity to train them early for dirt, and the general propensity to get to the gate earlier based on that development, drastically skews the ability to isolate bloodstock as the issue. Same thing with Storm Cat, a reputation for the "ouch", but clearly a bloodline pushed to develop. If trainers in fact, are generally taking their time with Dynaformers, then the percieved durability could be a function of when in fact heavy training is commenced.
Number of starts, and or years with a start would actually favor lower levels of talent, which run at claiming levels, and less often retire early to stud. There is no data on breakdowns or injuries; it has been discussed many times.
Personally, I think the Roberto sires percieved reputation for durability comes mainly from their size and presence. I would agree that a Dynaformer colt less any Prospector blood, would be a more versatile sire; but based on the Rock Hard Ten auction medians, it is apparent that many with big bucks don't mind the Prosector cross at all.
There is plenty of data which exhibits the number of starts of progeny by sire. However, since the Mr. Prospector line of Raise a Native accounts for more than 70% of starters in the US (based on 5x5 pedigree), and he is arguably more prominent as a broodmare sire, than a sire (his record as a broodmare sire is better), the chart is really irrelevant to my point. The point is that even if there was relevant data to show the fragility of Mr. Prospector offspring (which there isn't), the general acceptance that his progeny allegedly show the speed and brilliance early in development, the propensity to train them early for dirt, and the general propensity to get to the gate earlier based on that development, drastically skews the ability to isolate bloodstock as the issue. Same thing with Storm Cat, a reputation for the "ouch", but clearly a bloodline pushed to develop. If trainers in fact, are generally taking their time with Dynaformers, then the percieved durability could be a function of when in fact heavy training is commenced.
Number of starts, and or years with a start would actually favor lower levels of talent, which run at claiming levels, and less often retire early to stud. There is no data on breakdowns or injuries; it has been discussed many times.
Personally, I think the Roberto sires percieved reputation for durability comes mainly from their size and presence. I would agree that a Dynaformer colt less any Prospector blood, would be a more versatile sire; but based on the Rock Hard Ten auction medians, it is apparent that many with big bucks don't mind the Prosector cross at all.
Marigold,
I believe the hoof question was answered on ABR. Apparently Lentenor hooves are multicolored.
I believe the hoof question was answered on ABR. Apparently Lentenor hooves are multicolored.
Ragsy,
Update on jockey Michael Martinez, from DRF.COM:
"who suffered six fractured ribs, a skull fracture and three broken vertebrae in his mid-back, one of them shattered so badly that the bone fragments severed the spinal cord. Paralysis to his lower limbs was readily apparent, but it took a few days before Martinez’ other injuries could be stabilized enough to consider him out of immediate danger."
Among those who rushed to Martinez’ side was his first cousin, Alex Solis, who had been riding in Kentucky. One of the game’s premier riders, Solis himself fractured a vertebra, suffered broken ribs and a punctured lung in a crash at Del Mar in 2004. Surgery was required to stabilized his spine.
“I’ve known Michael since he was a kid,” said an emotionally exhausted Solis on Thursday morning. “Yesterday he was able to talk to me a little bit more. He said he wanted to get up, and for me to help him get to the bathroom. I told him he had to stay relaxed, but they still got to keep him tied down.”
Link:
drf.com/.../sudden-change-fortune-well-liked-man
Update on jockey Michael Martinez, from DRF.COM:
"who suffered six fractured ribs, a skull fracture and three broken vertebrae in his mid-back, one of them shattered so badly that the bone fragments severed the spinal cord. Paralysis to his lower limbs was readily apparent, but it took a few days before Martinez’ other injuries could be stabilized enough to consider him out of immediate danger."
Among those who rushed to Martinez’ side was his first cousin, Alex Solis, who had been riding in Kentucky. One of the game’s premier riders, Solis himself fractured a vertebra, suffered broken ribs and a punctured lung in a crash at Del Mar in 2004. Surgery was required to stabilized his spine.
“I’ve known Michael since he was a kid,” said an emotionally exhausted Solis on Thursday morning. “Yesterday he was able to talk to me a little bit more. He said he wanted to get up, and for me to help him get to the bathroom. I told him he had to stay relaxed, but they still got to keep him tied down.”
Link:
drf.com/.../sudden-change-fortune-well-liked-man
The severity of that injury to an otherwise healthy young man is just devastating. Michael is going to need all of our prayers.
Lentenor is Mr. fancy Feet (as if he needs anything to make him more beautiful.)
Lentenor is Mr. fancy Feet (as if he needs anything to make him more beautiful.)
Greg,
Thank you so much for the update on Michael Martinez, how very heartbreaking to hear of such a terrible accident.
Our prayers, thoughts and love to Michael during his recovery.
Thank you so much for the update on Michael Martinez, how very heartbreaking to hear of such a terrible accident.
Our prayers, thoughts and love to Michael during his recovery.
GregJ thank you for this report, seems worse than the one I read, but With such an extensive injury I am so thankful he has use of his arms and I cant wait for stem cell therapy to start.
( Praying for this child to recover fully with GOD'S love and healing powers.....)
( Praying for this child to recover fully with GOD'S love and healing powers.....)
Have you heard the news, Madeline Pickens horse sanctuary has BLM agreement she will be taking 1000 of the 36,000. in holding pens first, then the rest...wonderful news...hope on the horizion for horses.....
Let us hope that Martinez is a candidate for special therapy. Thoughts and prayers go with them.
I have sent in a response that contains most of what didn't get to this forum before, that has lots of references. If this one goes up without that, lots of good reading will be missed.
brettzky99, I don't discount that people buy the Mr. P's and RAN lines. They run early, they run fast, and if you can get some durability in them, have longer prospects. But, too many horses hit the breeding shed that have compromised soundness and breeders are breeding themselves into a corner because of the breed to sell thing. I came across an article that kind of restates, in a different way, what is happening. I have no opinion on the Werk background of this and you have to get through the ads, etc. However, it states the problem very well:
www.werkhorse.com/.../2005_teamwerk.pdf
Outcrosses dominate the Triple Crown and Breeders’ Cup
“What I am suggesting, rather, is that the breed is being painted
into a corner.”
Isn't it ironic that while Mr. P is racking up dominance in the stats it also coincides with decline in durability of the breed.
Meanwhile, back when Princequillo led the broodmare stats, we had some durable runners.
*What experts say about linebreeding to Princequillo -
"In my opinion, inbreeding to Princequillo is one of the best things you can do to get that foundation for stamina and soundness."
Anne Peters, co-author: Patterns of Greatness II, the Americans.
The dominance of Mr. P in the stats and consequently, certain RAN lines, only serves to, at least coincidentally, reinforce the soundness issues all too common these days. Unfortunately, what seems to bring in the $$$ now are fast and furious when young, done sometime in their three year old year, or younger.
Congratulations to Lael stables on the purchase of Check the Label. Go to "News" on this site, she just won. Her pedigree only has Northern Dancer twice, 4sX5d. And she is by a California stallion, to boot.
Interesting thing about the two recent filly purchases. Check the Label has a sire line going back to Icecapade and and the Dynaformer filly's dam's sire line goes to Icecapade. Icecapade brings in a cross of Native Dancer through his dam, Shenanigans. That name should ring a bell because she was the dam of Ruffian. But Ruffian's sire was Reviewer. I haven't heard if Icecapade and his get have had issues. The further back, the better and Icecapade comes down through Neartic instead.
I don't know if it was happenstance or not, very interesting anyway. You virtually cannot avoid the MR. P/Native Dancer/RAN breeding nowdays. So finding one clear of it and another with it further back is next best. Look how relatively close up some old lines are in both fillies dam lines. How often do you see Sailor in the 4th and Ambiopoise in the 3rd?
For some fun reading, you can read excerpts from one of Avalyn Hunter's books here:
books.google.com/books
I have sent in a response that contains most of what didn't get to this forum before, that has lots of references. If this one goes up without that, lots of good reading will be missed.
brettzky99, I don't discount that people buy the Mr. P's and RAN lines. They run early, they run fast, and if you can get some durability in them, have longer prospects. But, too many horses hit the breeding shed that have compromised soundness and breeders are breeding themselves into a corner because of the breed to sell thing. I came across an article that kind of restates, in a different way, what is happening. I have no opinion on the Werk background of this and you have to get through the ads, etc. However, it states the problem very well:
www.werkhorse.com/.../2005_teamwerk.pdf
Outcrosses dominate the Triple Crown and Breeders’ Cup
“What I am suggesting, rather, is that the breed is being painted
into a corner.”
Isn't it ironic that while Mr. P is racking up dominance in the stats it also coincides with decline in durability of the breed.
Meanwhile, back when Princequillo led the broodmare stats, we had some durable runners.
*What experts say about linebreeding to Princequillo -
"In my opinion, inbreeding to Princequillo is one of the best things you can do to get that foundation for stamina and soundness."
Anne Peters, co-author: Patterns of Greatness II, the Americans.
The dominance of Mr. P in the stats and consequently, certain RAN lines, only serves to, at least coincidentally, reinforce the soundness issues all too common these days. Unfortunately, what seems to bring in the $$$ now are fast and furious when young, done sometime in their three year old year, or younger.
Congratulations to Lael stables on the purchase of Check the Label. Go to "News" on this site, she just won. Her pedigree only has Northern Dancer twice, 4sX5d. And she is by a California stallion, to boot.
Interesting thing about the two recent filly purchases. Check the Label has a sire line going back to Icecapade and and the Dynaformer filly's dam's sire line goes to Icecapade. Icecapade brings in a cross of Native Dancer through his dam, Shenanigans. That name should ring a bell because she was the dam of Ruffian. But Ruffian's sire was Reviewer. I haven't heard if Icecapade and his get have had issues. The further back, the better and Icecapade comes down through Neartic instead.
I don't know if it was happenstance or not, very interesting anyway. You virtually cannot avoid the MR. P/Native Dancer/RAN breeding nowdays. So finding one clear of it and another with it further back is next best. Look how relatively close up some old lines are in both fillies dam lines. How often do you see Sailor in the 4th and Ambiopoise in the 3rd?
For some fun reading, you can read excerpts from one of Avalyn Hunter's books here:
books.google.com/books
FYI,
Nicanor is entered to run this Friday at Belmont in race #8, an Allowance/Optional claiming race at a distance of 1 1/16 miles on the inner turf course. Ramon Dominguez will have the mount, post time is 4:43. Nicanor breaks from gate #6 in the seven horse field.
The rest of the field:
#1 Skipadate/Castellano J.
#2 Lemon Cream Pie/Coa E.
#3 No Inflation/Gomez G.
#4 Pleasant Strike/Velazquez J.
#5 Baletti/Leparoux J.
#6 NICANOR/Dominguez R.
#7 Lime Rickey/Maragh R.
Nicanor is NOT entered for a tag.
Fingers crossed that Lentenor gets into his race on Saturday.
Nicanor is entered to run this Friday at Belmont in race #8, an Allowance/Optional claiming race at a distance of 1 1/16 miles on the inner turf course. Ramon Dominguez will have the mount, post time is 4:43. Nicanor breaks from gate #6 in the seven horse field.
The rest of the field:
#1 Skipadate/Castellano J.
#2 Lemon Cream Pie/Coa E.
#3 No Inflation/Gomez G.
#4 Pleasant Strike/Velazquez J.
#5 Baletti/Leparoux J.
#6 NICANOR/Dominguez R.
#7 Lime Rickey/Maragh R.
Nicanor is NOT entered for a tag.
Fingers crossed that Lentenor gets into his race on Saturday.
Thanks Greg for the heads-up. Glad you put in he wan not tagged. Now the FOB's can relax and enjoy the race.
since when have "the brothers" been
entered in claiming races... but
i'm so glad to see them racing with
less "off" time.... i was reading
where zenyatta was allowed to run
her "own" race as she wanted... why
not try this with nicky? if he
wants to run flat out let him try
it his way... can't hurt and he
just might start winning...give it
a try....
entered in claiming races... but
i'm so glad to see them racing with
less "off" time.... i was reading
where zenyatta was allowed to run
her "own" race as she wanted... why
not try this with nicky? if he
wants to run flat out let him try
it his way... can't hurt and he
just might start winning...give it
a try....
NMH,
As I mentioned, Nicanor's race is an optional claiming race, and Nicanor is NOT entered for a price. Baletti and Pleasant Strike are entered for a tag of $75,000.
As I mentioned, Nicanor's race is an optional claiming race, and Nicanor is NOT entered for a price. Baletti and Pleasant Strike are entered for a tag of $75,000.
Greg: What are you going to do. You stated you were out of vacation time and sick leave. Are you still going to be at Belmont on Friday and then hopefully Delaware on Saturday. You will need new tires for your car soon..........(s) Hopefully Nic will be allowed to run HIS race. Was hoping Gomez could ride him but that is my wishful thinking.
Lobieb,
lol, I am still trying to figure out my plans? I will probably leave work at 1:00 on Friday for the drive down to Belmont Park, depending on traffic in New York, it usually takes me 2-3 hours. If Lentenor gets into his race on Saturday(we will know on Wednesday), then I will drive down to Delaware Park after Nicanor's race. Yes, tires will need replacing very soon :)
lol, I am still trying to figure out my plans? I will probably leave work at 1:00 on Friday for the drive down to Belmont Park, depending on traffic in New York, it usually takes me 2-3 hours. If Lentenor gets into his race on Saturday(we will know on Wednesday), then I will drive down to Delaware Park after Nicanor's race. Yes, tires will need replacing very soon :)
Greg....I can't find my info on Lentenor. Where is he nominated to race Sat.? Any new news on that?
Lou,
Lentenor is nominated for the $250,000 Grade III Kent Stakes at a distance of 1 1/8 miles on the turf at Delaware Park this Saturday. We won't know until Wednesday if he made the field.
Lentenor is nominated for the $250,000 Grade III Kent Stakes at a distance of 1 1/8 miles on the turf at Delaware Park this Saturday. We won't know until Wednesday if he made the field.
Thanks a bunch. You ought to start a fundraiser for some new tires. Just kidding!! Hope your plans work out and be safe with all the driving.
Greg, thank you for the updates on Nicanor and Lentenor's race.I do hope that Lentenor gets in. Sounds like we have a pretty exciting weekend coming up!
Ragsy, thank you for the info on Madeline Pickens. I found some very interesting reading on her site concerning the sanctuary which could provide a nice place to getaway or vacation. "Once the horses are installed,families will be able to pull up in RV'S,we will hopefully have log cabins, little hotels, children will sit out and have bonfires". How relaxing.
The Jackson's filly, Check the Label won the Garden City Stakes this week.Big congrats to both her and the Jackson's!
We will continue to pray for Michael and I hope that the stem cell research will help Michael gain back some movement.GODS love is with you, Michael.
Ragsy, thank you for the info on Madeline Pickens. I found some very interesting reading on her site concerning the sanctuary which could provide a nice place to getaway or vacation. "Once the horses are installed,families will be able to pull up in RV'S,we will hopefully have log cabins, little hotels, children will sit out and have bonfires". How relaxing.
The Jackson's filly, Check the Label won the Garden City Stakes this week.Big congrats to both her and the Jackson's!
We will continue to pray for Michael and I hope that the stem cell research will help Michael gain back some movement.GODS love is with you, Michael.
This will be an exciting weekend, as Greg will explain. Both boys running (hopefully), well and safely. New jockey for Nicanor. Lentenor will be confirmed tomorrow, or not, for the Kent Stakes.
whose the new jockey for nicanor?
Oops, did not see Greg's earlier post with details about Nic's race on Friday. Should be exciting.
Hope he and Ramon hit it off well.
Hope he and Ramon hit it off well.
Nmh,
Ramon Dominguez will be Nicanors jockey for Fridays race. In the current Belmont meet, Ramon has the highest percentage at hitting the board of the seven jockeys in the race. In 42 races, he has placed in the top three 67%, 8 wins, 16 seconds, and 4 third place finishes. Nicanor is in very capable hands.
Ramon Dominguez will be Nicanors jockey for Fridays race. In the current Belmont meet, Ramon has the highest percentage at hitting the board of the seven jockeys in the race. In 42 races, he has placed in the top three 67%, 8 wins, 16 seconds, and 4 third place finishes. Nicanor is in very capable hands.
Thanks for the update on Nicanor's upcoming race. I am thrilled Ramon is the new jockey for Nicanor. Loved his ride on Read The Label. By the way, isn't she awesome? Have been anxiously waiting for Bahama Bound's next outing, she seems to have some potentia and what Happened to Just Ben? I really liked him and then never heard anything about him.
So glag to hear the brothers will be running this week, hope nothing but the best for all.
Mary, I appreciate your admiration of Princequillo, although you insist on saying he could fix leg problems(quoting from the pedegree page) and not from a historical article but PLEASE do not tell people Zenyatta gets her staminia from his line when she descends from absolute royalty and Princequillo's influence is laughable compared to that fact. Consider she comes from the likes of Nasrullah, grandsire of
Mary, I appreciate your admiration of Princequillo, although you insist on saying he could fix leg problems(quoting from the pedegree page) and not from a historical article but PLEASE do not tell people Zenyatta gets her staminia from his line when she descends from absolute royalty and Princequillo's influence is laughable compared to that fact. Consider she comes from the likes of Nasrullah, grandsire of
HEY, someone hit submit and i wasn't through! lol
As I was saying, Zenyatta comes from the likes of Nasrullah, Never Bend, Nashua, some of the most influential sires and raceing lines one could imagine. They don't call her the Queen for nothing!
There I'ver had my say and that's the end of that. Couldn't finish this from last week because we went to the races for the week-end and saw the L.A. fair while doing it! It don't get any better than that!!!
As I was saying, Zenyatta comes from the likes of Nasrullah, Never Bend, Nashua, some of the most influential sires and raceing lines one could imagine. They don't call her the Queen for nothing!
There I'ver had my say and that's the end of that. Couldn't finish this from last week because we went to the races for the week-end and saw the L.A. fair while doing it! It don't get any better than that!!!
Was very hurt by Mr. Paulick report, and some of the comments posted there.
Go Nicanor and Lentenor!
just a Fan of Barbaro's, Wishing the brothers well!
Thanks Greg!
Go Nicanor and Lentenor!
just a Fan of Barbaro's, Wishing the brothers well!
Thanks Greg!
I'm glad to see our boys will both be running. They'll win this time but the most important thing is to finish safely. Mr. Matz knows these horses better than anyone.
Dear Greg,
Thank you for all your posts. You are our eyes and ears into the lives of these beautiful horses. You are appreciated more than you know. All the info. is priceless since Nicky and Lenny mean so much to us. Keep up the good work and God Bless.
Dear Greg,
Thank you for all your posts. You are our eyes and ears into the lives of these beautiful horses. You are appreciated more than you know. All the info. is priceless since Nicky and Lenny mean so much to us. Keep up the good work and God Bless.
Barb, yes she gets her stamina and large heart from the Princequillo line, this is a fact, and it is also a fact that Princequillo had the unique ability to correct leg problems in his offspring. I want you to look at the pedigrees of Big Brown and Eight Belles. You will learn a lot from reading their pedigrees. Accidents waiting to happenm, hoof probelsm and Eight Belles, the inbreeding was unbelievable, very sad.
Zenyatta, according to Mike Smith, has never even come close to hitting all gears. Enough said, just do independent research, with an open mind.
Zenyatta, according to Mike Smith, has never even come close to hitting all gears. Enough said, just do independent research, with an open mind.
Barb, of course Nasrullah was the sire of the great Bold Ruler, but Bold Ruler IMO had little to do with Secretariat's greatness. Secretariat's greatness came from his broodmire sire, Princequillo.
Nicanor and Lentenor both face tough fields this week. May they both run well and come home safely.
It's official, Lentenor is racing Saturday in the $250,000 Grade III Kent Stakes at Delaware Park!
I will have a new entry posted tonight looking at both brothers races.
I will have a new entry posted tonight looking at both brothers races.
OMG - Please people, stop trying to converse with Mary! It's beyond bull headed or ignorant on her part and I hate to be unkind but some people out there aren't as savvy as others and to think they would believe some of Mary's comments, it's pitiful! She did add one sentence and that's "in my opinion" and that should tell you what you're up against. Anyone that would dismiss Bold Ruler, the #19th horse on The Top 100 Racehorses of th 20th century for Princequillo, who is not even rated, says it all , IN MY OPINION. Bold Ruler's dam Miss Disco comes from Discovery by Display out of Fair Play. That line alone tops anything from the Princequillo line and his male line goes back to the great Palaris. By the way, if anyone is interested to read all asbout these great sires and dams from a credible source may I suggest "Portraits" by the Thoroughbred Heritage Museum site, where the history of the racehorse is covered in awesome detail, complete with pictures. Read the analysis by the best in the world and Mary, you need to get a new source or get your information from experts that know what they're talking about. IMO.
I love "Mr Fancy Feet" for Lenny, suspose it's out fo the question to request they be painted pink for the LVR11 "think pink" campaign? J?K....
YIPPIEEEEEEE! Both our boys running! May these precious fellows run well and come home safely!
Oh, thanks bunches, Greg!
Oh, thanks bunches, Greg!
Pray to the Harvest Full Moon God and spirits for safe races for Nic & Len this week. Both Nicanor and Lenenor WILL finish FIRST in their races.
Barb, the first thing I look at in a colt's pedigree is the broodmare sire. The reason I look at this first is because the X chromosone carries much more genetic material than the Y chromosone. The colt has one Y and one X chromosone. He receives the X chromosone, of course, from his dam, and the Y from his sire.
I then look at the complete bottom side of the colt's pedigree.
Now, a filly is a different story. She carries XX chromosones, so I look at her sire's female line, and her dam's female and male lines.
Don't get me wrong Nasrullah was a magnificent horse, but like all great sires, where he is placed in a horse's pedigree is extremely important.
IMO, pedigree is 50% of what makes a great horse, the other 50% is training, jockey, and luck.
Nicanor has the pedigree, but he is stubborn and IMO misunderstood. PLEASE DON'T EVERYBODY JUMP ON ME FOR SAYING THAT. This happens.
Lentenor, on the other hand, IMO is not stubborn at all, but the whole racing thing has not clicked with him yet. AT ANY MOMENT THOUGH I EXPECT LENTENOR TO FINALLY GET IT. MY INTUITION TELLS ME THAT this Saturday will be his day. I think that you will see a different horse on Saturday.
He's a fairly tall horse, so I hope that that he is placed well off of the pace. I just don't think the stalking position suits him.
I then look at the complete bottom side of the colt's pedigree.
Now, a filly is a different story. She carries XX chromosones, so I look at her sire's female line, and her dam's female and male lines.
Don't get me wrong Nasrullah was a magnificent horse, but like all great sires, where he is placed in a horse's pedigree is extremely important.
IMO, pedigree is 50% of what makes a great horse, the other 50% is training, jockey, and luck.
Nicanor has the pedigree, but he is stubborn and IMO misunderstood. PLEASE DON'T EVERYBODY JUMP ON ME FOR SAYING THAT. This happens.
Lentenor, on the other hand, IMO is not stubborn at all, but the whole racing thing has not clicked with him yet. AT ANY MOMENT THOUGH I EXPECT LENTENOR TO FINALLY GET IT. MY INTUITION TELLS ME THAT this Saturday will be his day. I think that you will see a different horse on Saturday.
He's a fairly tall horse, so I hope that that he is placed well off of the pace. I just don't think the stalking position suits him.
Mary, I've often heard the terms "bottom" amd "top". Please explain that those terms mean.
Thanks.
Thanks.
Lentenor made the field in the Kent stakes, He will break from PP 4 with Gabe Siez in the saddle. Good luck to Lentenor & Nicanor in their respective races.
I for one am just fascinated by Lentenor's multi patterned feet (hooves). As beautiful as he is, he didn't need Fancy Feet, too! He will have a jockey change for Saturday -- Gabriel Saez. Jose was injured in a spill the other day and is off his mounts for at least the rest of the week. Hope he'll be fine in time.
Marigold, the top side is the sire's pedigree and the bottom or tail side is the dam's pedigree.
Marigold - when you read a pedigree the sire's side of the family is on the top and the dam's side is on the bottom.
I see that both boys are running this weekend. Good luck to them both.
I see that both boys are running this weekend. Good luck to them both.
Please explain what those terms mean.
Well...I think both Nicanor and Lentenor are going to win.
I just hope that the jockey allows Nicanor to have fun, albeit within certain obvious criteria concerning rules and safety.
And Lentenor, let it be your day. You can do it.
Good luck guys, I'll be watching via the internet.
Greg, has there been any word on the new foal to be? I mean pink or blue is fine with me...just curious.
I just hope that the jockey allows Nicanor to have fun, albeit within certain obvious criteria concerning rules and safety.
And Lentenor, let it be your day. You can do it.
Good luck guys, I'll be watching via the internet.
Greg, has there been any word on the new foal to be? I mean pink or blue is fine with me...just curious.
See that Lentenor has a rider change for Saturday. Gabriel Saez is taking over. If Larry Jones used him all the time when he was training he is o.k. with me. He won the Kentucky Oaks on Proud Spell as well as a win at Saratoga on her. True he rode Eight Belles to her second place finish in the Derby but it was not his fault that she broke down.
Thanks, Mary et al -- got top vs bottom now.
Go Nicanor and Go Lentenor! Please come home safe and sound -- we love you both bunches and bunches!
Go Nicanor and Go Lentenor! Please come home safe and sound -- we love you both bunches and bunches!
I want to apologize for the lack of timeliness of this post. I have submitted three posts since my last on the 17th and none have shown up here.
Regarding different colors in hoofs- If the horse has any white on its legs, usually, you can get an all white foot or the appearance of stripes in the foot. It is normal with horses that have white on their legs.
This is a board that does not have to only have what one individual anoints themselves to allow. Mr. P is what he is. A sire that sired precocious and fast, mostly short running, horses. There are exceptions. The fact that Mr. P is only once in the pedigrees of the brothers is a good thing. Carson City MAY throw more durability than most of the Mr. P’s. It is relevant to talk about avoiding more MR. P because too many crosses of that line causes trouble. Mr. P was a good looking horse with leg issues. Some of his sons have those issues and pass them on.
Next, endurance and stamina are indeed important to “blend” the pedigree as Mr. Bell states. Endurance equates to the ability to withstand the rigors of racing. Size also relates to bone structure. Stamina is important because Carson City was a sprinter. This is a classic example of melding sprint with endurance/durability and stamina to produce a classic horse, one that can get 1-1/4 miles.
Brettsky99, I understand that there is some ambivalence that the Mr. P’s/RAN’s have soundness issues. It does matter which horse RAN comes down through. Some point to Alydar, a son, and Affirmed, a grandson of RAN, as examples of sound horses from the RAN lines. What does not get pointed out is the quality of the mares behind those horses represented more of the old blood, not crosses and recrosses of RAN over Northern Dancer. I also know that sport horse people are generally cautious about RAN in a horse they are contemplating and who the line comes down through matters. It also matters if an opinion about a horse is from someone with a VETSTED INTEREST in a horse.
I tried to stay away from Parker's articles, although she is not wrong about a lot of things. It's hard not to have some of that in posts because she did come out and say what others were unwilling to.
There’s more on Princequillo below. He was the dam sire of Secretariat, who ran on the legs and stamina he got from Princequillo. As for Mr. P leading stats, coincidentally it only confirms the breed to sell angle (Precocious, pretty, and fast. Sound?) and further supports the increasing prevalence of soundness problems. Crowing about the prevalence of MR. P/Ran is ignoring the real problems down the road with more and more of the same blood crossed over and over.
I am still very happy for the Jackson's on the purchase of their Dynaformer filly. brettzky99, the gem this filly might represent, if she runs well and succeeds in the shed, is the potential for outcross lines, not only for Mr. P, but also for Northern Dancer. The breed cannot go outside TB's for that, so it must happen within the breed. The potential for an outcross stallion here is exciting and very necessary. What the Jackson's will do is up to them. Also congrats on the win of their new filly, Check the Label. She only has Northern Dancer 4sX5d, with Native dancer again through Shenanigans. Shenanigans was the dam of Ruffian. In this pedigree, it’s well back and Reviewer is not the sire. It’s unusual to see some of the older lines up that close, Sailor, in this case, and Ambiopoise in the other.
For those that don’t know why, here’s some history. (And do understand that other lines can have issues too):
RAN/Native Dancer- I will post where I got my information because that’s the only honest way to do it. For example, Native Dancer did get some great horses. But all that ND blood came at a cost:
www.bloodhorse.com/.../evening-attire-solid-and-sharp
In his case, he is inbred 4 x 4 to Raise a Native, a blazing-fast horse whose combination of extreme speed, heavy muscling, and inadequate underpinnings led to his retirement with a bowed tendon after just four starts. At stud, Raise a Native had a justified reputation for throwing progeny that shared both his great virtue (speed) and his great fault (unsoundness).
(But read the whole article, because it’s about exceptions to the rule with RAN offspring. But RAN did throw unsoundness)
www.courier-journal.com/.../article
“Raise a Native's offspring, especially those from his son, Mr. Prospector, have been coveted for
their speed. But they also have been known for being injury-prone, especially if too much of the
line appears in a horse's pedigree.”
“Among them is her sire, Unbridled's Song, a great-great-grandson of Raise a Native with a
reputation for having brittle-boned progeny”
www.pedigreepost.net/.../SoundnessAvalynHunter.html
“More importantly, they are a factor enabling genes for various inheritable defects to maintain a higher frequency in the Thoroughbred population than might otherwise be the case. Inherited defects, in fact, appear to be the primary cause of the apparent decline in soundness. While medication is probably a factor in the spread of these traits, two other trends have played greater roles: the shift towards greater financial rewards for earlier maturity, and the greatly increased value of breeding stock.
(Medication and market allowing defects to remain)
” Although the juvenile-heavy purse structure that allowed the early spread of unsoundness no longer exists, early maturity still drives the market for young horses, where a quick return on investment is considered desirable. And most top commercial sires excel at producing horses that can race well at two or, at the latest, early in their three-year-old seasons. But serious faults are more the rule that the exception in this population. Storm Cat, himself an unsound horse who did not race past his juvenile year, routinely transmits his own offset knees; Mr. Prospector's (RAN by Native Dancer) get frequently turned out at the knee and had small feet; Raise a Native contributed top-heaviness and upright pasterns; (Native Dancer had upright pasterns and ankle problems) and Seattle Slew, A.P. Indy, and Unbridled have all tended to sire large, massive specimens who are either very good or woefully unsound.”
pedigreecurmudgeon.blogspot.com/.../native-dancers-ankles.html
“Native Dancer came by his ankle problems honestly, though. He was not only massively heavy, but he had short, upright pasterns and a round, pounding action. With that combination, it is remarkable that he stayed as sound as he did for 22 starts. He won 21 of them, of course, losing only when short of work for the Kentucky Derby. Much has been made in retrospect of some minor traffic trouble Native Dancer encountered going into the first turn of the Derby, but the truth was that Winfrey had been forced to rush his preparation after deciding to fire his ankles fairly late in the winter.”
” Raise a Native was brilliant, inheriting Native Dancer's massive physique and upright pasterns, but his tendons were tied in behind the knee, which led to a bow after only four starts.”
www.courier-journal.com/fdcp
“Since the Derby, much attention has been devoted to the bloodlines tracing to the speedy Raise a Native, the 1963 2-year-old champion who won all four of his races before retiring with an injury.
Especially through his son Mr. Prospector, Raise a Native's progeny have been coveted as a fertile source of that concept breeders like to call "brilliance" -- not just fleet front-runners but thoroughbreds who can win with a dramatic burst of speed at the end of a race.
It's "the kind of horses that stir the imagination," said Claiborne managing partner Seth Hancock, Arthur's brother. But there is a tradeoff -- an above-average propensity toward brittleness, especially if too much of the blood shows up in a horse's pedigree, many breeders and industry observers say.”
“Dr. Hiram Polk, a Louisville surgeon and member of The Jockey Club Thoroughbred Safety Committee, said he changed his view of Raise a Native as "a guilty party" after some preliminary statistics were presented to the panel regarding certain sire lines and their injury rates, compared with the overall horse population.
"For all his shortcomings, he was the sire of Alydar and grandsire of Affirmed, two incredibly sound and good horses," Polk said.”
(BUT- they were not line bred or inbred to RAN or ND, Affirmed being one generation removed from RAN. And, they were crossed with the older lines. Keep in mind we’re talking the ‘70’s here)
I thought this article, although from Werk, gave a different and perhaps more understandable approach to the issue of too much of one or two lines. It’s the first article, have to page through some ads:
www.werkhorse.com/.../2005_teamwork.pdf
Outcrosses dominate the Triple Crown and Breeders’ Cup
“What I am suggesting, rather, is that the breed is being painted
into a corner.”
What I found about advise in breeding La Ville Rouge to Dynaformer:
www.thoroughbredtimes.com/.../Profile-on-Lael-Farm.aspx
“We’ve always loved Dynaformer for his versatility, and we’ve watched some of his renowned grass horses,” Gretchen said. “We use Nicoma Bloodstock, Headley Bell, and it was his advice to breed that mare to Dynaformer.”
Bell shared a mutual respect for Dynaformer and believed the stallion was a strong fit for La Ville Rouge for a variety of reasons. “Really, as much as anything, I thought the mare could use some size,” Bell recalled. “Dynaformer is a horse that we’ve always had high regard for from the standpoint of he [stood his first season for $5,000] and made his way all the way up to, at that time, $50,000.
“The cross of the Hail to Reason, the *Turn-to, the *Ribot, with all of the ingredients of the Blushing Groom (Fr) with the Carson City—all of the pedigree blend,” Bell continued. “So it was a combination of size, pedigree blend, and believing in Dynaformer’s ability to breed a racehorse.”
This article changed my thinking about soundness of American Thoroughbreds vs European Thoroughbreds:
www.opencomputing.ca/.../Puzzle%20of%20many%20pieces.pdf
www.opencomputing.ca/.../Corruption%20of%20a%20legacy.pdf
www.thoroughbredreview.com/eightbelles.htm
From Ann Peters herself on sound (and relatively recent) lines. Native Dancer and MR. Prospector are not on there:
finance.groups.yahoo.com/.../7333
Grey Dawn II
Cryptoclearance
Broad Brush
Ack Ack
Wild Again
Explodent
Relaunch
Talc
Cure the Blues
His Majesty
Our Native
Mr. Leader
Hail to Reason
Silent Screen
Gallant Man
Caro
Nodouble
Round Table
Anne
Princequillo
www.thoroughbredtimes.com/.../princequillo.pdf
www.tbheritage.com/.../Family1.html
Princequillo b.c. 1940
(Prince Rose - Cosquilla)
Won 12 of 33 starts in the U.S., including the Jockey Club Gold Cup, the Saratoga Handicap, the Citizens' Handicap. Leading Sire in the U.S. in 1957-58, and Leading Sire of Broodmares in the U.S. 8 times, his many successful progeny included Round Table, Dedicate, Prince John, Misty Morn, Quill, Hill Prince, Somethingroyal. A recognized source of stamina and soundness.
*What experts say about linebreeding to Princequillo -
"In my opinion, inbreeding to Princequillo is one of the best things you can do to get that foundation for stamina and soundness."
Anne Peters, co-author: Patterns of Greatness II, the Americans.
For fun, reading about some bloodlines and classics from the past. Only part of the book is online, but it’s a fun read:
books.google.com/books
A neat article about Zenyatta’s exercise rider:
www.thepilot.com/.../se...ok-willard-on
Good luck to the brothers. Again, this dates back to earlier debates and are responses to that that did not get posted. Why? This is post #4 since the 17th.
Regarding different colors in hoofs- If the horse has any white on its legs, usually, you can get an all white foot or the appearance of stripes in the foot. It is normal with horses that have white on their legs.
This is a board that does not have to only have what one individual anoints themselves to allow. Mr. P is what he is. A sire that sired precocious and fast, mostly short running, horses. There are exceptions. The fact that Mr. P is only once in the pedigrees of the brothers is a good thing. Carson City MAY throw more durability than most of the Mr. P’s. It is relevant to talk about avoiding more MR. P because too many crosses of that line causes trouble. Mr. P was a good looking horse with leg issues. Some of his sons have those issues and pass them on.
Next, endurance and stamina are indeed important to “blend” the pedigree as Mr. Bell states. Endurance equates to the ability to withstand the rigors of racing. Size also relates to bone structure. Stamina is important because Carson City was a sprinter. This is a classic example of melding sprint with endurance/durability and stamina to produce a classic horse, one that can get 1-1/4 miles.
Brettsky99, I understand that there is some ambivalence that the Mr. P’s/RAN’s have soundness issues. It does matter which horse RAN comes down through. Some point to Alydar, a son, and Affirmed, a grandson of RAN, as examples of sound horses from the RAN lines. What does not get pointed out is the quality of the mares behind those horses represented more of the old blood, not crosses and recrosses of RAN over Northern Dancer. I also know that sport horse people are generally cautious about RAN in a horse they are contemplating and who the line comes down through matters. It also matters if an opinion about a horse is from someone with a VETSTED INTEREST in a horse.
I tried to stay away from Parker's articles, although she is not wrong about a lot of things. It's hard not to have some of that in posts because she did come out and say what others were unwilling to.
There’s more on Princequillo below. He was the dam sire of Secretariat, who ran on the legs and stamina he got from Princequillo. As for Mr. P leading stats, coincidentally it only confirms the breed to sell angle (Precocious, pretty, and fast. Sound?) and further supports the increasing prevalence of soundness problems. Crowing about the prevalence of MR. P/Ran is ignoring the real problems down the road with more and more of the same blood crossed over and over.
I am still very happy for the Jackson's on the purchase of their Dynaformer filly. brettzky99, the gem this filly might represent, if she runs well and succeeds in the shed, is the potential for outcross lines, not only for Mr. P, but also for Northern Dancer. The breed cannot go outside TB's for that, so it must happen within the breed. The potential for an outcross stallion here is exciting and very necessary. What the Jackson's will do is up to them. Also congrats on the win of their new filly, Check the Label. She only has Northern Dancer 4sX5d, with Native dancer again through Shenanigans. Shenanigans was the dam of Ruffian. In this pedigree, it’s well back and Reviewer is not the sire. It’s unusual to see some of the older lines up that close, Sailor, in this case, and Ambiopoise in the other.
For those that don’t know why, here’s some history. (And do understand that other lines can have issues too):
RAN/Native Dancer- I will post where I got my information because that’s the only honest way to do it. For example, Native Dancer did get some great horses. But all that ND blood came at a cost:
www.bloodhorse.com/.../evening-attire-solid-and-sharp
In his case, he is inbred 4 x 4 to Raise a Native, a blazing-fast horse whose combination of extreme speed, heavy muscling, and inadequate underpinnings led to his retirement with a bowed tendon after just four starts. At stud, Raise a Native had a justified reputation for throwing progeny that shared both his great virtue (speed) and his great fault (unsoundness).
(But read the whole article, because it’s about exceptions to the rule with RAN offspring. But RAN did throw unsoundness)
www.courier-journal.com/.../article
“Raise a Native's offspring, especially those from his son, Mr. Prospector, have been coveted for
their speed. But they also have been known for being injury-prone, especially if too much of the
line appears in a horse's pedigree.”
“Among them is her sire, Unbridled's Song, a great-great-grandson of Raise a Native with a
reputation for having brittle-boned progeny”
www.pedigreepost.net/.../SoundnessAvalynHunter.html
“More importantly, they are a factor enabling genes for various inheritable defects to maintain a higher frequency in the Thoroughbred population than might otherwise be the case. Inherited defects, in fact, appear to be the primary cause of the apparent decline in soundness. While medication is probably a factor in the spread of these traits, two other trends have played greater roles: the shift towards greater financial rewards for earlier maturity, and the greatly increased value of breeding stock.
(Medication and market allowing defects to remain)
” Although the juvenile-heavy purse structure that allowed the early spread of unsoundness no longer exists, early maturity still drives the market for young horses, where a quick return on investment is considered desirable. And most top commercial sires excel at producing horses that can race well at two or, at the latest, early in their three-year-old seasons. But serious faults are more the rule that the exception in this population. Storm Cat, himself an unsound horse who did not race past his juvenile year, routinely transmits his own offset knees; Mr. Prospector's (RAN by Native Dancer) get frequently turned out at the knee and had small feet; Raise a Native contributed top-heaviness and upright pasterns; (Native Dancer had upright pasterns and ankle problems) and Seattle Slew, A.P. Indy, and Unbridled have all tended to sire large, massive specimens who are either very good or woefully unsound.”
pedigreecurmudgeon.blogspot.com/.../native-dancers-ankles.html
“Native Dancer came by his ankle problems honestly, though. He was not only massively heavy, but he had short, upright pasterns and a round, pounding action. With that combination, it is remarkable that he stayed as sound as he did for 22 starts. He won 21 of them, of course, losing only when short of work for the Kentucky Derby. Much has been made in retrospect of some minor traffic trouble Native Dancer encountered going into the first turn of the Derby, but the truth was that Winfrey had been forced to rush his preparation after deciding to fire his ankles fairly late in the winter.”
” Raise a Native was brilliant, inheriting Native Dancer's massive physique and upright pasterns, but his tendons were tied in behind the knee, which led to a bow after only four starts.”
www.courier-journal.com/fdcp
“Since the Derby, much attention has been devoted to the bloodlines tracing to the speedy Raise a Native, the 1963 2-year-old champion who won all four of his races before retiring with an injury.
Especially through his son Mr. Prospector, Raise a Native's progeny have been coveted as a fertile source of that concept breeders like to call "brilliance" -- not just fleet front-runners but thoroughbreds who can win with a dramatic burst of speed at the end of a race.
It's "the kind of horses that stir the imagination," said Claiborne managing partner Seth Hancock, Arthur's brother. But there is a tradeoff -- an above-average propensity toward brittleness, especially if too much of the blood shows up in a horse's pedigree, many breeders and industry observers say.”
“Dr. Hiram Polk, a Louisville surgeon and member of The Jockey Club Thoroughbred Safety Committee, said he changed his view of Raise a Native as "a guilty party" after some preliminary statistics were presented to the panel regarding certain sire lines and their injury rates, compared with the overall horse population.
"For all his shortcomings, he was the sire of Alydar and grandsire of Affirmed, two incredibly sound and good horses," Polk said.”
(BUT- they were not line bred or inbred to RAN or ND, Affirmed being one generation removed from RAN. And, they were crossed with the older lines. Keep in mind we’re talking the ‘70’s here)
I thought this article, although from Werk, gave a different and perhaps more understandable approach to the issue of too much of one or two lines. It’s the first article, have to page through some ads:
www.werkhorse.com/.../2005_teamwork.pdf
Outcrosses dominate the Triple Crown and Breeders’ Cup
“What I am suggesting, rather, is that the breed is being painted
into a corner.”
What I found about advise in breeding La Ville Rouge to Dynaformer:
www.thoroughbredtimes.com/.../Profile-on-Lael-Farm.aspx
“We’ve always loved Dynaformer for his versatility, and we’ve watched some of his renowned grass horses,” Gretchen said. “We use Nicoma Bloodstock, Headley Bell, and it was his advice to breed that mare to Dynaformer.”
Bell shared a mutual respect for Dynaformer and believed the stallion was a strong fit for La Ville Rouge for a variety of reasons. “Really, as much as anything, I thought the mare could use some size,” Bell recalled. “Dynaformer is a horse that we’ve always had high regard for from the standpoint of he [stood his first season for $5,000] and made his way all the way up to, at that time, $50,000.
“The cross of the Hail to Reason, the *Turn-to, the *Ribot, with all of the ingredients of the Blushing Groom (Fr) with the Carson City—all of the pedigree blend,” Bell continued. “So it was a combination of size, pedigree blend, and believing in Dynaformer’s ability to breed a racehorse.”
This article changed my thinking about soundness of American Thoroughbreds vs European Thoroughbreds:
www.opencomputing.ca/.../Puzzle%20of%20many%20pieces.pdf
www.opencomputing.ca/.../Corruption%20of%20a%20legacy.pdf
www.thoroughbredreview.com/eightbelles.htm
From Ann Peters herself on sound (and relatively recent) lines. Native Dancer and MR. Prospector are not on there:
finance.groups.yahoo.com/.../7333
Grey Dawn II
Cryptoclearance
Broad Brush
Ack Ack
Wild Again
Explodent
Relaunch
Talc
Cure the Blues
His Majesty
Our Native
Mr. Leader
Hail to Reason
Silent Screen
Gallant Man
Caro
Nodouble
Round Table
Anne
Princequillo
www.thoroughbredtimes.com/.../princequillo.pdf
www.tbheritage.com/.../Family1.html
Princequillo b.c. 1940
(Prince Rose - Cosquilla)
Won 12 of 33 starts in the U.S., including the Jockey Club Gold Cup, the Saratoga Handicap, the Citizens' Handicap. Leading Sire in the U.S. in 1957-58, and Leading Sire of Broodmares in the U.S. 8 times, his many successful progeny included Round Table, Dedicate, Prince John, Misty Morn, Quill, Hill Prince, Somethingroyal. A recognized source of stamina and soundness.
*What experts say about linebreeding to Princequillo -
"In my opinion, inbreeding to Princequillo is one of the best things you can do to get that foundation for stamina and soundness."
Anne Peters, co-author: Patterns of Greatness II, the Americans.
For fun, reading about some bloodlines and classics from the past. Only part of the book is online, but it’s a fun read:
books.google.com/books
A neat article about Zenyatta’s exercise rider:
www.thepilot.com/.../se...ok-willard-on
Good luck to the brothers. Again, this dates back to earlier debates and are responses to that that did not get posted. Why? This is post #4 since the 17th.
I dont know about praying to a moon god cause there is a moon god in Islam.... and I sure as hell dont like islam...
But, I love the Brothers Of Barbaro and wish them all the rewards of their works...
But, I love the Brothers Of Barbaro and wish them all the rewards of their works...
Mary, don't you know it's the "gene pool" that means everything in a pedegree and yet you go on about a horse that is a drop in the bucket in that pool. Sharp Queen is just a drop in Zenyatta's pool. Princequillo in the scheme of things is like a skate board compared to a Mercedes.
Here's a free lesson on the prominent sire lines from the great Phalaris and I'll address Nasrullah next. Phalaris's sire line translates to almost 50% of the entire sire gene pool. One could say Nasrullah is nearly 1/4 of this 50% or 1/8 of the sire pool. Either way, he is a dominent force:
NEARCO - The Royal Charger line - Turn-To, he sired Hail To Reason, that sired Halo and Roberto.
The Neartic line-
Icecapade who sired Clever Trick and Wild Again.
Northern Dancer, sire of Vice Regent that sired Deputy Minister.
Storm Bird that sired Storm Cat.
Danzig, he sired Danehill and Langfuhr.
The Nasrullah line - Red God who sired Blushing Groom.
Nashua.
Never Bend.
Bold Ruler, sire of Secretariat,
Boldnesian who sired Bold Reasioning, sire of Seattle Slew.
The Sickle line -
Unbreakable,
Polynesian,
Native Dancer,
Raise a Native
Mr Prospector.
Mary, to say Nasrullah had very little to do with Secretariat's greatness is unbelievable. I suppose you don't think he had anything to do with Spectacular Bid #10 on the alltime list, Nashua #24 - grandsire of Mr. Prospector, grandsire of Skip Away #32, son Reviewer that sired Ruffian # 35 (hey, I didn't rate them. Take it up with bloodhorse staff) also What a Pleasure, sire of Folish Pleasure #97. Great grandsire of Seattle Slew #9, Great grandsire of Alysheba #42. Direct male line of Slew O' Gold #58, sired Glamour, great granddam of Silver Charm #63, Sired the only horse that beat Citation twice, Noor #69. Grandsire of Shuvee #70, Sire of Bald Eagle #74 who sired San San, a Arc de Triomphe winner and was the grandsire of Exceller #96 and Capote. Great grandsire of Lady's Secret #76, Grandsire of Gamely #87, Great grandsire of Bayakoa #95.
As you can clearly see, it makes no difference top or bottm, he was an extremely prominent and influential sire.
Nasrulla is pertenient to this site, being the grandsire of Mr Prospector who sired Carson City, the grandsire of Barbaro and his brothers. They not only get speed from La Villa Rouge but stamina as well. It's in the genes.
Glad you quoted Dona. She said pedegree, plus trainer, jockey, conditions and racing luck!
Good luck to both boys! They have the genes, the trainer and hopefully the conditions. If they can only get the jockey and a little racing luck.
Here's a free lesson on the prominent sire lines from the great Phalaris and I'll address Nasrullah next. Phalaris's sire line translates to almost 50% of the entire sire gene pool. One could say Nasrullah is nearly 1/4 of this 50% or 1/8 of the sire pool. Either way, he is a dominent force:
NEARCO - The Royal Charger line - Turn-To, he sired Hail To Reason, that sired Halo and Roberto.
The Neartic line-
Icecapade who sired Clever Trick and Wild Again.
Northern Dancer, sire of Vice Regent that sired Deputy Minister.
Storm Bird that sired Storm Cat.
Danzig, he sired Danehill and Langfuhr.
The Nasrullah line - Red God who sired Blushing Groom.
Nashua.
Never Bend.
Bold Ruler, sire of Secretariat,
Boldnesian who sired Bold Reasioning, sire of Seattle Slew.
The Sickle line -
Unbreakable,
Polynesian,
Native Dancer,
Raise a Native
Mr Prospector.
Mary, to say Nasrullah had very little to do with Secretariat's greatness is unbelievable. I suppose you don't think he had anything to do with Spectacular Bid #10 on the alltime list, Nashua #24 - grandsire of Mr. Prospector, grandsire of Skip Away #32, son Reviewer that sired Ruffian # 35 (hey, I didn't rate them. Take it up with bloodhorse staff) also What a Pleasure, sire of Folish Pleasure #97. Great grandsire of Seattle Slew #9, Great grandsire of Alysheba #42. Direct male line of Slew O' Gold #58, sired Glamour, great granddam of Silver Charm #63, Sired the only horse that beat Citation twice, Noor #69. Grandsire of Shuvee #70, Sire of Bald Eagle #74 who sired San San, a Arc de Triomphe winner and was the grandsire of Exceller #96 and Capote. Great grandsire of Lady's Secret #76, Grandsire of Gamely #87, Great grandsire of Bayakoa #95.
As you can clearly see, it makes no difference top or bottm, he was an extremely prominent and influential sire.
Nasrulla is pertenient to this site, being the grandsire of Mr Prospector who sired Carson City, the grandsire of Barbaro and his brothers. They not only get speed from La Villa Rouge but stamina as well. It's in the genes.
Glad you quoted Dona. She said pedegree, plus trainer, jockey, conditions and racing luck!
Good luck to both boys! They have the genes, the trainer and hopefully the conditions. If they can only get the jockey and a little racing luck.
Congrats to Michael Martinez, his baby girl was born yesterday.News is that the baby was born in the same hospital where he is recovering from a terrible accident. Michael, we continue to keep you in our prayers.
Greg, do you think that we will get to see a video of the Brothers race on Friday and Saturday?
Greg, do you think that we will get to see a video of the Brothers race on Friday and Saturday?
As happy as I am to see both boys running this weekend, I think maybe it's time for Nicanor to hang up the racing thing and try to find a different job. He just looks to me like he's not that into racing, and I wonder if he wouldn't be better suited to a different job, like jumpers or eventing. No shame in it, but just because Barbaro was a great racehorse doesn't mean Nicanor has to be one too - maybe he just doesn't like it that much, thus his frustration that he's been showing in his races. Not a professional opinion or anything, just a thought.
That said, I think Lenny has what it takes. :) Love to see that little man (or big man now, I guess!) run. And either way, I will be keeping my fingers crossed for both boys this weekend and hoping they do well and - most important - come home safely!
That said, I think Lenny has what it takes. :) Love to see that little man (or big man now, I guess!) run. And either way, I will be keeping my fingers crossed for both boys this weekend and hoping they do well and - most important - come home safely!
Sandieh,
Thanks for the news regarding Michael Martinez's baby girl. Continued positive thoughts for him and his family.
Anna,
Just to chime in, one still needs to remember, Nicanor has only had ten races in his career. He has hit the board in six of those races, with three victories. He is still learning the game, way to early to say it is time to move on to another career, IMHO.
Thanks for the news regarding Michael Martinez's baby girl. Continued positive thoughts for him and his family.
Anna,
Just to chime in, one still needs to remember, Nicanor has only had ten races in his career. He has hit the board in six of those races, with three victories. He is still learning the game, way to early to say it is time to move on to another career, IMHO.
Barb, this is the last comment I will make to you. I have tried to be nice and just state the facts. IMO you are absolutely dead wrong about the Princequillo line, so any future comments that you make about him will be ignored by me. It is a scientific fact that the X chromosone carries much much more genetic material than the Y.
I'm done.
I'm done.
Bold Ruler was the sire of Secretariat, but his broomare sire was Princequillo. If you think that Princequillo made no contribution to Secretariat's greatness, you are just very wrong. When I talk about X and Y chromosones, do you understand what I am saying.
Barb, I said in my post that Nicanor has the pedigree. I'm just done with these not so nice comments.
Come on guys, just agree to disagree -- opinions are just that, opinions -- and not necessarily fact. Whatever the case -- Nic and Len are running this week and we wish them well -- may they run well and come out of their races safe and sound. There have been some horses with flaws who are unlikely successes on the race track (Lisa's Booby Trap for one, currently) so that the frustration with these beautiful, strapping, healthy, and sound colts rises up and gets the better of some of us. Who knows what the issues are that may be preventing their all out success -- maybe it is just the luck part of their equation -- certainly would help if they could get consistent jockeys, who know each of them and know how to best ride them. Nicanor knows how to run -- he just wants to be permitted to do it. He is just not a horse who will want to rate behind the others. For him, running means to be the leader and he is unhappy when he's not allowed to do that. He also hates the whip. Let's see what the strategy is this week -- with a new jockey. I wish so much that Nic would blow the socks off and have a successful win so that he can move on to the next step in his progression. Ditto Lentenor who has always been in the money except for the Fla Derby where he was 4th. He needs a breakthrough, too. Hope Jose will be all right and back on Lenny soon.
Our thoughts and love will be with both boys this weekend. May they both come home safe, sound and hopefully winners.
Ragsy,
There is no "moon god" in Islam. Islam has one god, Allah, who is the very same god worshiped in Christianity and Judaism. Did you know that Jesus is one of Islam's prophets?
There is no "moon god" in Islam. Islam has one god, Allah, who is the very same god worshiped in Christianity and Judaism. Did you know that Jesus is one of Islam's prophets?
This is my sixth or seventh sent since 9/17, the last one posted to this forum.
This one might get posted, now that this thread will largely be ignored for the new one.
What started the debate about bloodlines were posts congratulating the Jackson’s on the purchase of a filly with no Mr. Prospector lines. There was nothing in those posts to offend but a certain poster took umbrage- as they have done before on this blog- because the soundness problems go back largely to their idol, Native Dancer. They then posted that by “dissing” Mr. Prospector, it was dissing Barbaro and the brothers. This is a red herring argument:
"A red herring is an idiom referring to a device which intends to divert the audience from the truth or an item of significance."
That comment was meant to illicit negative emotions about posts that valued a horse with no Mr. Prospector.
On the contrary, it’s paying the highest compliment to the Jackson’s on their choice of this filly. Their following purchase, of Check the Label, was almost as good with only two crosses to Northern Dancer. Also, both fillies had the unusual occurence of some old lines up close. AS I HAD STATED, this was very good because of the proliferation of those bloodlines in TB’s today and the need for out crosses. In fact, the out cross of Dynaformer to LVR is a sterling example. What I postulated, was the chance for a totally non-NativeD/NorthernD stallion from the first filly, if she ran well and produced well. That is a good thing in terms of what the breed could use right now.
Instead, people were pelted with how good so-so was because they led this stat or that. Ironically, the fact that Mr. P (In a different era) led stats that happen to coincide with the decline in soundness, while Princequillo was a source of soundness, seemed to elude them, as does the fact that no breed can maintain when the gene pool gets too narrow. See below for recent article on Bloodhorse. It’s a very narrow viewpoint that only points to stats. There is a consequence for those stats and it’s not pretty. Because something is popular does not make it good.
Regarding Princequillo, even Ann Peters, who I believe was quoted (without source) before, said this of Princequillo:
"In my opinion, inbreeding to Princequillo is one of the best things you can do to get that foundation for stamina and soundness."
Anne Peters, co-author: Patterns of Greatness II, the Americans.
And since somehow the debate got into Nasrullah and descendents, I had said, in another post that never made it here, that Secretariat got his stamina and legs from Princequillo. He also got his temperament from his dam’s (Princequillo) side, or he never might have been the great horse he became. Nasrullah was an example of a horse whose temperament held him back. That line was also primarily short running horses, something which Princequillo improved upon. In short, Secretariat could be Secretariat and run that fabulous Belmont because of Princequillo- and the very rare alignment of greatness that occurs so rarely. To disparage Princequillo’s role in producing Secretariat to total exclusion- well, it shows something, let’s just put it that way.
www.scribd.com/.../Secretariat
“…while the fact that both stallions stood at Claiborne had something to do with the Nasrullah-Princequillo nick, there really was an unusual affinity between the two lines. Princequillo sired horses of stamina, durability, and even temperament while the Nasrullahs often had exceptional speed, soundness issues, and attitude problems. The blend, when it worked, could produce a special racehorse.”
The argument against Princequillo could just as well apply to Dynaformer, for he supplies the SAME FUNCTION in the cross with LVR. He supplied stamina and soundness although in his case, not temperament. And a rare alignment struck again in Barbaro.
And that is why the debate about outcross blood is relevant to this blog. It was an outcross that got a Barbaro, just as it did a Secretariat. (Barbaro is an almost total outcross, with only Nashua repeating twice through the 5th, Secretariat was a total outcross through 5 generations)
I will follow with sources you can read for yourselves about soundness, etc. I had quoted them in other posts that never made it to this blog. Read for yourselves:
www.bloodhorse.com/.../evening-attire-solid-and-sharp
"In his case, he is inbred 4 x 4 to Raise a Native, a blazing-fast horse whose combination of extreme speed, heavy muscling, and inadequate underpinnings led to his retirement with a bowed tendon after just four starts. At stud, Raise a Native had a justified reputation for throwing progeny that shared both his great virtue (speed) and his great fault (unsoundness)."
www.courier-journal.com/.../article
www.pedigreepost.net/.../SoundnessAvalynHunter.html
pedigreecurmudgeon.blogspot.com/.../native-dancers-ankles.html
www.thoroughbredreview.com/eightbelles.htm
www.courier-journal.com/fdcp
(Note that Affirmed and Alydar are mentioned as sound individuals from the RAN line and I’m saying that here and not excluding it. But, they also came from mare’s of older bloodlines- keep in mind the era was the 70’s. Alydar’s dam was a 1965 mare and Affirmed’s dam 1962. Seth Hancock’s statement is noteworthy.)
www.werkhorse.com/.../2005_teamwork.pdf
Outcrosses dominate the Triple Crown and Breeders’ Cup
“What I am suggesting, rather, is that the breed is being painted
into a corner.”
What I found about advise in breeding La Ville Rouge to Dynaformer:
www.thoroughbredtimes.com/.../Profile-on-Lael-Farm.aspx
“We’ve always loved Dynaformer for his versatility, and we’ve watched some of his renowned grass horses,” Gretchen said. “We use Nicoma Bloodstock, Headley Bell, and it was his advice to breed that mare to Dynaformer.” (This is from the Jackson’s)
This article changed my thinking about soundness of American Thoroughbreds vs European Thoroughbreds:
www.opencomputing.ca/.../Puzzle%20of%20many%20pieces.pdf
www.opencomputing.ca/.../Corruption%20of%20a%20legacy.pdf
Princequillo
www.thoroughbredtimes.com/.../princequillo.pdf
www.time.com/.../0,9171,907424,00.html
"The best way to describe Bold Ruler's offspring," says Mrs. Tweedy, "is that they've been precocious and brilliant. Most of them have run their best at age two, at the shorter distances, and have been something of a disappointment at three, when they're asked to go farther. Also Bold Ruler was arthritic, and there's a tendency to unsoundness in the family." That means his offspring tend to go lame, early and often. “
“But Penny Tweedy has a breeding theory based on the belief that every horse, male or female, has some defects; the trick is to cross bloodlines so that the dam's virtues cancel out the sire's flaws and vice versa. According to this theory, she had the ideal mate for Bold Ruler—a mare called Somethingroyal, daughter of a very different kind of sire named Princequillo. “
(I guess Penny Tweedy never learned about how bad Princequillo is....)
www.thoroughbredtimes.com/.../The-end-of-innocence.aspx
(About Bold Ruler and, potentially, bute)
Finally, and very currently, did anyone read this on Bloodhorse?
cs.bloodhorse.com/.../is-the-american-thoroughbred-a-separate-breed.aspx
Is the American Thoroughbred a Separate Breed?
By all means, do read from the links provided and search for more information on your own. Don’t just depend on the opinions of others on this forum, including mine.
Now, for some FUN:
Reading about some bloodlines and classics from the past. Only part of the book is online, but it’s a fun read:
books.google.com/books
A neat article about Zenyatta’s exercise rider:
www.thepilot.com/.../se...ok-willard-on
This one might get posted, now that this thread will largely be ignored for the new one.
What started the debate about bloodlines were posts congratulating the Jackson’s on the purchase of a filly with no Mr. Prospector lines. There was nothing in those posts to offend but a certain poster took umbrage- as they have done before on this blog- because the soundness problems go back largely to their idol, Native Dancer. They then posted that by “dissing” Mr. Prospector, it was dissing Barbaro and the brothers. This is a red herring argument:
"A red herring is an idiom referring to a device which intends to divert the audience from the truth or an item of significance."
That comment was meant to illicit negative emotions about posts that valued a horse with no Mr. Prospector.
On the contrary, it’s paying the highest compliment to the Jackson’s on their choice of this filly. Their following purchase, of Check the Label, was almost as good with only two crosses to Northern Dancer. Also, both fillies had the unusual occurence of some old lines up close. AS I HAD STATED, this was very good because of the proliferation of those bloodlines in TB’s today and the need for out crosses. In fact, the out cross of Dynaformer to LVR is a sterling example. What I postulated, was the chance for a totally non-NativeD/NorthernD stallion from the first filly, if she ran well and produced well. That is a good thing in terms of what the breed could use right now.
Instead, people were pelted with how good so-so was because they led this stat or that. Ironically, the fact that Mr. P (In a different era) led stats that happen to coincide with the decline in soundness, while Princequillo was a source of soundness, seemed to elude them, as does the fact that no breed can maintain when the gene pool gets too narrow. See below for recent article on Bloodhorse. It’s a very narrow viewpoint that only points to stats. There is a consequence for those stats and it’s not pretty. Because something is popular does not make it good.
Regarding Princequillo, even Ann Peters, who I believe was quoted (without source) before, said this of Princequillo:
"In my opinion, inbreeding to Princequillo is one of the best things you can do to get that foundation for stamina and soundness."
Anne Peters, co-author: Patterns of Greatness II, the Americans.
And since somehow the debate got into Nasrullah and descendents, I had said, in another post that never made it here, that Secretariat got his stamina and legs from Princequillo. He also got his temperament from his dam’s (Princequillo) side, or he never might have been the great horse he became. Nasrullah was an example of a horse whose temperament held him back. That line was also primarily short running horses, something which Princequillo improved upon. In short, Secretariat could be Secretariat and run that fabulous Belmont because of Princequillo- and the very rare alignment of greatness that occurs so rarely. To disparage Princequillo’s role in producing Secretariat to total exclusion- well, it shows something, let’s just put it that way.
www.scribd.com/.../Secretariat
“…while the fact that both stallions stood at Claiborne had something to do with the Nasrullah-Princequillo nick, there really was an unusual affinity between the two lines. Princequillo sired horses of stamina, durability, and even temperament while the Nasrullahs often had exceptional speed, soundness issues, and attitude problems. The blend, when it worked, could produce a special racehorse.”
The argument against Princequillo could just as well apply to Dynaformer, for he supplies the SAME FUNCTION in the cross with LVR. He supplied stamina and soundness although in his case, not temperament. And a rare alignment struck again in Barbaro.
And that is why the debate about outcross blood is relevant to this blog. It was an outcross that got a Barbaro, just as it did a Secretariat. (Barbaro is an almost total outcross, with only Nashua repeating twice through the 5th, Secretariat was a total outcross through 5 generations)
I will follow with sources you can read for yourselves about soundness, etc. I had quoted them in other posts that never made it to this blog. Read for yourselves:
www.bloodhorse.com/.../evening-attire-solid-and-sharp
"In his case, he is inbred 4 x 4 to Raise a Native, a blazing-fast horse whose combination of extreme speed, heavy muscling, and inadequate underpinnings led to his retirement with a bowed tendon after just four starts. At stud, Raise a Native had a justified reputation for throwing progeny that shared both his great virtue (speed) and his great fault (unsoundness)."
www.courier-journal.com/.../article
www.pedigreepost.net/.../SoundnessAvalynHunter.html
pedigreecurmudgeon.blogspot.com/.../native-dancers-ankles.html
www.thoroughbredreview.com/eightbelles.htm
www.courier-journal.com/fdcp
(Note that Affirmed and Alydar are mentioned as sound individuals from the RAN line and I’m saying that here and not excluding it. But, they also came from mare’s of older bloodlines- keep in mind the era was the 70’s. Alydar’s dam was a 1965 mare and Affirmed’s dam 1962. Seth Hancock’s statement is noteworthy.)
www.werkhorse.com/.../2005_teamwork.pdf
Outcrosses dominate the Triple Crown and Breeders’ Cup
“What I am suggesting, rather, is that the breed is being painted
into a corner.”
What I found about advise in breeding La Ville Rouge to Dynaformer:
www.thoroughbredtimes.com/.../Profile-on-Lael-Farm.aspx
“We’ve always loved Dynaformer for his versatility, and we’ve watched some of his renowned grass horses,” Gretchen said. “We use Nicoma Bloodstock, Headley Bell, and it was his advice to breed that mare to Dynaformer.” (This is from the Jackson’s)
This article changed my thinking about soundness of American Thoroughbreds vs European Thoroughbreds:
www.opencomputing.ca/.../Puzzle%20of%20many%20pieces.pdf
www.opencomputing.ca/.../Corruption%20of%20a%20legacy.pdf
Princequillo
www.thoroughbredtimes.com/.../princequillo.pdf
www.time.com/.../0,9171,907424,00.html
"The best way to describe Bold Ruler's offspring," says Mrs. Tweedy, "is that they've been precocious and brilliant. Most of them have run their best at age two, at the shorter distances, and have been something of a disappointment at three, when they're asked to go farther. Also Bold Ruler was arthritic, and there's a tendency to unsoundness in the family." That means his offspring tend to go lame, early and often. “
“But Penny Tweedy has a breeding theory based on the belief that every horse, male or female, has some defects; the trick is to cross bloodlines so that the dam's virtues cancel out the sire's flaws and vice versa. According to this theory, she had the ideal mate for Bold Ruler—a mare called Somethingroyal, daughter of a very different kind of sire named Princequillo. “
(I guess Penny Tweedy never learned about how bad Princequillo is....)
www.thoroughbredtimes.com/.../The-end-of-innocence.aspx
(About Bold Ruler and, potentially, bute)
Finally, and very currently, did anyone read this on Bloodhorse?
cs.bloodhorse.com/.../is-the-american-thoroughbred-a-separate-breed.aspx
Is the American Thoroughbred a Separate Breed?
By all means, do read from the links provided and search for more information on your own. Don’t just depend on the opinions of others on this forum, including mine.
Now, for some FUN:
Reading about some bloodlines and classics from the past. Only part of the book is online, but it’s a fun read:
books.google.com/books
A neat article about Zenyatta’s exercise rider:
www.thepilot.com/.../se...ok-willard-on
Mary, You can't even get your own facts straight! I didn't say Princequillo had nothing to do with Secratariat greatness, I took issue when YOU said Nasrullah had little to do with it!
Your comment was posted sept 20th at 10.57 - that statement shows how little you know!
There's not one knowledgeable person in the entire equine industry that would rate Princequillo on an even scale with Nasrullah, and most certainly, not above him. That's at any level, be it racing, stamina, progeny, sire or broodmare sire.
Sherry mentioned a chart that is available on the most influential sires lines and she is correct. Princequillo's line is so small it's laughable! Yeah, laughable.
Your comment was posted sept 20th at 10.57 - that statement shows how little you know!
There's not one knowledgeable person in the entire equine industry that would rate Princequillo on an even scale with Nasrullah, and most certainly, not above him. That's at any level, be it racing, stamina, progeny, sire or broodmare sire.
Sherry mentioned a chart that is available on the most influential sires lines and she is correct. Princequillo's line is so small it's laughable! Yeah, laughable.
Barb, you are just so wrong. I'm done. Have a nice evening, and go Lentenor and Nicanor.
How about we agree to disagree?
Yes, we can agree to disagree. Now I would like to invite everyone to look at La Ville Rouge's pedigree. Barbaro's greatness was a gift from his dam. This most magnificent creature also had a trainer that had an innate understanding of him. The jockey and luck really didn't play much of a part in Barbaro's game. He made his own luck and Edgar just went along for the ride.
Mary thats an excellent idea..Barbaro was such a marvelous horse and LaVille Rouge is some mama, so teach us something!!!
Mary
That shot of Nicanor is the best picture of him I have ever seen..I want a copy of him, no, I want that picture 11x16 next to Barbaro and Lentenor....on my wall....
what would it take to get that shot of Nicky!!
GregJ
That shot of Nicanor is the best picture of him I have ever seen..I want a copy of him, no, I want that picture 11x16 next to Barbaro and Lentenor....on my wall....
what would it take to get that shot of Nicky!!
GregJ
After Nicanor's race I'm beginning to think the same about him, trainer now understands him. Luck and jockey, not important. Ragsy, I want that picture too. Lets talk to Greg about that.
Morning Line just won the Penn. Derby. His broodmare sire is AP Indy. Of course we all know that AP Indy is out Weekend Surprise, daughter of Secretariat, and Weekend's great broodmare sire is the great Princequillo.
Morning Line has some great genes, absent Mr. Prospector.
Morning Line has some great genes, absent Mr. Prospector.
This is my sixth or seventh sent since 9/17, the last one posted to this forum. (Now #8, as I'm sending it AGAIN)
This one might get posted, now that this thread will largely be ignored for the new one.
What started the debate about bloodlines were posts congratulating the Jackson’s on the purchase of a filly with no Mr. Prospector lines. There was nothing in those posts to offend but a certain poster took umbrage- as they have done before on this blog- because the soundness problems go back largely to their idol, Native Dancer. They then posted that by “dissing” Mr. Prospector, it was dissing Barbaro and the brothers. This is a red herring argument:
"A red herring is an idiom referring to a device which intends to divert the audience from the truth or an item of significance."
That comment was meant to illicit negative emotions about posts that valued a horse with no Mr. Prospector.
On the contrary, it’s paying the highest compliment to the Jackson’s on their choice of this filly. Their following purchase, of Check the Label, was almost as good with only two crosses to Northern Dancer. AS I HAD STATED, this was very good because of the proliferation of those bloodlines in TB’s today and the need for outcrosses. In fact, the outcross of Dynaformer to LVR is a sterling example. What I postulated, was the chance for a totally non-ND/ND stallion from the first filly, if she ran well and produced well. That is a good thing in terms of what the breed could use right now.
Instead, people were pelted with how good so-so was because they led this stat or that. Ironically, the fact that Mr. P (In a different era) led stats that happen to coincide with the decline in soundness, while Princequillo was a source of soundness, seemed to elude them, as does the fact that no breed can maintain when the gene pool gets too narrow. See below for recent article on Bloodhorse. It’s a very narrow viewpoint that only points to stats. There is a consequence for those stats and it’s not pretty. Because something is popular does not make it good.
Regarding Princequillo, even Ann Peters, who I believe was quoted (without source) before, said this of Princequillo:
"In my opinion, inbreeding to Princequillo is one of the best things you can do to get that foundation for stamina and soundness."
Anne Peters, co-author: Patterns of Greatness II, the Americans.
And since somehow the debate got into Nasrullah and descendents, I had said, in another post that never made it here, that Secretariat got his stamina and legs from Princequillo. He also got his temperament from his dam’s (Princequillo) side, or he never might have been the great horse he became. Nasrullah was an example of a horse whose temperament held him back. That line was also primarily short running horses, something which Princequillo improved upon. In short, Secretariat could be Secretariat, fast and able to carry it, because of Princequillo- and the very rare alignment of greatness that occurs so rarely. To disparage Princequillo’s role in producing Secretariat to total exclusion- well, it shows something, let’s just put it that way.
www.scribd.com/.../Secretariat
“…while the fact that both stallions stood at Claiborne had something to do with the Nasrullah-Princequillo nick, there really was an unusual affinity between the two lines. Princequillo sired horses of stamina, durability, and even temperament while the Nasrullahs often had exceptional speed, soundness issues, and attitude problems. The blend, when it worked, could produce a special racehorse.”
The argument against Princequillo could just as well apply to Dynaformer, for he supplies the same function in the cross with LVR. As long as you are going to exclude the line that provides stamina and soundness in one cross, and concentrate on only the fast, precocious and brilliant side, you have to exclude Dynaformer too. He supplied stamina and soundness although in his case, not temperament. A rare alignment struck again in Barbaro.
And that is why the debate about outcross blood is relevant to this blog. It was an outcross that got a Barbaro, just as it did a Secretariat. (Barbaro is an almost total outcross, with only Nashua repeating twice through the 5th, Secretariat was a total outcross through 5 generations)
I will follow with sources you can read for yourselves about soundness, etc. I had quoted them in other posts that never made it to this blog. It’s the honest way to do it. Read for yourselves:
www.bloodhorse.com/.../evening-attire-solid-and-sharp
"In his case, he is inbred 4 x 4 to Raise a Native, a blazing-fast horse whose combination of extreme speed, heavy muscling, and inadequate underpinnings led to his retirement with a bowed tendon after just four starts. At stud, Raise a Native had a justified reputation for throwing progeny that shared both his great virtue (speed) and his great fault (unsoundness)."
www.courier-journal.com/.../article
www.pedigreepost.net/.../SoundnessAvalynHunter.html
pedigreecurmudgeon.blogspot.com/.../native-dancers-ankles.html
www.thoroughbredreview.com/eightbelles.htm
www.courier-journal.com/fdcp
(Note that Affirmed and Alydar are mentioned as sound individuals from the RAN line and I’m saying that here and not excluding it. But, they also came from mare’s of older bloodlines- keep in mind the era was the 70’s. Alydar’s dam was a 1965 mare and Affirmed’s dam 1962. Seth Hancock’s statement is noteworthy.)
www.werkhorse.com/.../2005_teamwork.pdf
Outcrosses dominate the Triple Crown and Breeders’ Cup
“What I am suggesting, rather, is that the breed is being painted
into a corner.”
What I found about advise in breeding La Ville Rouge to Dynaformer:
www.thoroughbredtimes.com/.../Profile-on-Lael-Farm.aspx
“We’ve always loved Dynaformer for his versatility, and we’ve watched some of his renowned grass horses,” Gretchen said. “We use Nicoma Bloodstock, Headley Bell, and it was his advice to breed that mare to Dynaformer.” (Not, apparently, Anne Peters and this is from the Jackson’s)
This article changed my thinking about soundness of American Thoroughbreds vs European Thoroughbreds:
www.opencomputing.ca/.../Puzzle%20of%20many%20pieces.pdf
www.opencomputing.ca/.../Corruption%20of%20a%20legacy.pdf
Princequillo
www.thoroughbredtimes.com/.../princequillo.pdf
www.time.com/.../0,9171,907424,00.html
"The best way to describe Bold Ruler's offspring," says Mrs. Tweedy, "is that they've been precocious and brilliant. Most of them have run their best at age two, at the shorter distances, and have been something of a disappointment at three, when they're asked to go farther. Also Bold Ruler was arthritic, and there's a tendency to unsoundness in the family." That means his offspring tend to go lame, early and often. “
“But Penny Tweedy has a breeding theory based on the belief that every horse, male or female, has some defects; the trick is to cross bloodlines so that the dam's virtues cancel out the sire's flaws and vice versa. According to this theory, she had the ideal mate for Bold Ruler—a mare called Somethingroyal, daughter of a very different kind of sire named Princequillo. “
www.thoroughbredtimes.com/.../The-end-of-innocence.aspx
(About Bold Ruler and, potentially, bute)
Finally, and very currently, did anyone read this on Bloodhorse?
cs.bloodhorse.com/.../is-the-american-thoroughbred-a-separate-breed.aspx
“Is the American Thoroughbred a Separate Breed?”
By all means, do read from the links provided and search for more information on your own. Don’t just depend on the opinions of others on this forum, including mine.
Now, for some FUN:
For fun, reading about some bloodlines and classics from the past. Only part of the book is online, but it’s a fun read:
books.google.com/books
A neat article about Zenyatta’s exercise rider:
www.thepilot.com/.../se...ok-willard-on
This one might get posted, now that this thread will largely be ignored for the new one.
What started the debate about bloodlines were posts congratulating the Jackson’s on the purchase of a filly with no Mr. Prospector lines. There was nothing in those posts to offend but a certain poster took umbrage- as they have done before on this blog- because the soundness problems go back largely to their idol, Native Dancer. They then posted that by “dissing” Mr. Prospector, it was dissing Barbaro and the brothers. This is a red herring argument:
"A red herring is an idiom referring to a device which intends to divert the audience from the truth or an item of significance."
That comment was meant to illicit negative emotions about posts that valued a horse with no Mr. Prospector.
On the contrary, it’s paying the highest compliment to the Jackson’s on their choice of this filly. Their following purchase, of Check the Label, was almost as good with only two crosses to Northern Dancer. AS I HAD STATED, this was very good because of the proliferation of those bloodlines in TB’s today and the need for outcrosses. In fact, the outcross of Dynaformer to LVR is a sterling example. What I postulated, was the chance for a totally non-ND/ND stallion from the first filly, if she ran well and produced well. That is a good thing in terms of what the breed could use right now.
Instead, people were pelted with how good so-so was because they led this stat or that. Ironically, the fact that Mr. P (In a different era) led stats that happen to coincide with the decline in soundness, while Princequillo was a source of soundness, seemed to elude them, as does the fact that no breed can maintain when the gene pool gets too narrow. See below for recent article on Bloodhorse. It’s a very narrow viewpoint that only points to stats. There is a consequence for those stats and it’s not pretty. Because something is popular does not make it good.
Regarding Princequillo, even Ann Peters, who I believe was quoted (without source) before, said this of Princequillo:
"In my opinion, inbreeding to Princequillo is one of the best things you can do to get that foundation for stamina and soundness."
Anne Peters, co-author: Patterns of Greatness II, the Americans.
And since somehow the debate got into Nasrullah and descendents, I had said, in another post that never made it here, that Secretariat got his stamina and legs from Princequillo. He also got his temperament from his dam’s (Princequillo) side, or he never might have been the great horse he became. Nasrullah was an example of a horse whose temperament held him back. That line was also primarily short running horses, something which Princequillo improved upon. In short, Secretariat could be Secretariat, fast and able to carry it, because of Princequillo- and the very rare alignment of greatness that occurs so rarely. To disparage Princequillo’s role in producing Secretariat to total exclusion- well, it shows something, let’s just put it that way.
www.scribd.com/.../Secretariat
“…while the fact that both stallions stood at Claiborne had something to do with the Nasrullah-Princequillo nick, there really was an unusual affinity between the two lines. Princequillo sired horses of stamina, durability, and even temperament while the Nasrullahs often had exceptional speed, soundness issues, and attitude problems. The blend, when it worked, could produce a special racehorse.”
The argument against Princequillo could just as well apply to Dynaformer, for he supplies the same function in the cross with LVR. As long as you are going to exclude the line that provides stamina and soundness in one cross, and concentrate on only the fast, precocious and brilliant side, you have to exclude Dynaformer too. He supplied stamina and soundness although in his case, not temperament. A rare alignment struck again in Barbaro.
And that is why the debate about outcross blood is relevant to this blog. It was an outcross that got a Barbaro, just as it did a Secretariat. (Barbaro is an almost total outcross, with only Nashua repeating twice through the 5th, Secretariat was a total outcross through 5 generations)
I will follow with sources you can read for yourselves about soundness, etc. I had quoted them in other posts that never made it to this blog. It’s the honest way to do it. Read for yourselves:
www.bloodhorse.com/.../evening-attire-solid-and-sharp
"In his case, he is inbred 4 x 4 to Raise a Native, a blazing-fast horse whose combination of extreme speed, heavy muscling, and inadequate underpinnings led to his retirement with a bowed tendon after just four starts. At stud, Raise a Native had a justified reputation for throwing progeny that shared both his great virtue (speed) and his great fault (unsoundness)."
www.courier-journal.com/.../article
www.pedigreepost.net/.../SoundnessAvalynHunter.html
pedigreecurmudgeon.blogspot.com/.../native-dancers-ankles.html
www.thoroughbredreview.com/eightbelles.htm
www.courier-journal.com/fdcp
(Note that Affirmed and Alydar are mentioned as sound individuals from the RAN line and I’m saying that here and not excluding it. But, they also came from mare’s of older bloodlines- keep in mind the era was the 70’s. Alydar’s dam was a 1965 mare and Affirmed’s dam 1962. Seth Hancock’s statement is noteworthy.)
www.werkhorse.com/.../2005_teamwork.pdf
Outcrosses dominate the Triple Crown and Breeders’ Cup
“What I am suggesting, rather, is that the breed is being painted
into a corner.”
What I found about advise in breeding La Ville Rouge to Dynaformer:
www.thoroughbredtimes.com/.../Profile-on-Lael-Farm.aspx
“We’ve always loved Dynaformer for his versatility, and we’ve watched some of his renowned grass horses,” Gretchen said. “We use Nicoma Bloodstock, Headley Bell, and it was his advice to breed that mare to Dynaformer.” (Not, apparently, Anne Peters and this is from the Jackson’s)
This article changed my thinking about soundness of American Thoroughbreds vs European Thoroughbreds:
www.opencomputing.ca/.../Puzzle%20of%20many%20pieces.pdf
www.opencomputing.ca/.../Corruption%20of%20a%20legacy.pdf
Princequillo
www.thoroughbredtimes.com/.../princequillo.pdf
www.time.com/.../0,9171,907424,00.html
"The best way to describe Bold Ruler's offspring," says Mrs. Tweedy, "is that they've been precocious and brilliant. Most of them have run their best at age two, at the shorter distances, and have been something of a disappointment at three, when they're asked to go farther. Also Bold Ruler was arthritic, and there's a tendency to unsoundness in the family." That means his offspring tend to go lame, early and often. “
“But Penny Tweedy has a breeding theory based on the belief that every horse, male or female, has some defects; the trick is to cross bloodlines so that the dam's virtues cancel out the sire's flaws and vice versa. According to this theory, she had the ideal mate for Bold Ruler—a mare called Somethingroyal, daughter of a very different kind of sire named Princequillo. “
www.thoroughbredtimes.com/.../The-end-of-innocence.aspx
(About Bold Ruler and, potentially, bute)
Finally, and very currently, did anyone read this on Bloodhorse?
cs.bloodhorse.com/.../is-the-american-thoroughbred-a-separate-breed.aspx
“Is the American Thoroughbred a Separate Breed?”
By all means, do read from the links provided and search for more information on your own. Don’t just depend on the opinions of others on this forum, including mine.
Now, for some FUN:
For fun, reading about some bloodlines and classics from the past. Only part of the book is online, but it’s a fun read:
books.google.com/books
A neat article about Zenyatta’s exercise rider:
www.thepilot.com/.../se...ok-willard-on
Greg, I can post to other blogs on Bloodhorse, why don’t my posts appear on this blog?
This is my sixth or seventh sent since 9/17, the last one posted to this forum. (Now #8)(Now #9)
This one might get posted, now that this thread will largely be ignored for the new one.
What started the debate about bloodlines were posts congratulating the Jackson’s on the purchase of a filly with no Mr. Prospector lines. There was nothing in those posts to offend but a certain poster took umbrage- as they have done before on this blog- because the soundness problems go back largely to their idol, Native Dancer. They then posted that by “dissing” Mr. Prospector, it was dissing Barbaro and the brothers. This is a red herring argument:
"A red herring is an idiom referring to a device which intends to divert the audience from the truth or an item of significance."
That comment was meant to illicit negative emotions about posts that valued a horse with no Mr. Prospector.
On the contrary, it’s paying the highest compliment to the Jackson’s on their choice of this filly. Their following purchase, of Check the Label, was almost as good with only two crosses to Northern Dancer. AS I HAD STATED, this was very good because of the proliferation of those bloodlines in TB’s today and the need for outcrosses. In fact, the outcross of Dynaformer to LVR is a sterling example. What I postulated, was the chance for a totally non-ND/ND stallion from the first filly, if she ran well and produced well. That is a good thing in terms of what the breed could use right now.
Instead, people were pelted with how good so-so was because they led this stat or that. Ironically, the fact that Mr. P (In a different era) led stats that happen to coincide with the decline in soundness, while Princequillo was a source of soundness, seemed to elude them, as does the fact that no breed can maintain when the gene pool gets too narrow. See below for recent article on Bloodhorse. It’s a very narrow viewpoint that only points to stats. There is a consequence for those stats and it’s not pretty. Because something is popular does not make it good.
Regarding Princequillo, even Ann Peters, who I believe was quoted (without source) before, said this of Princequillo:
"In my opinion, inbreeding to Princequillo is one of the best things you can do to get that foundation for stamina and soundness."
Anne Peters, co-author: Patterns of Greatness II, the Americans.
And since somehow the debate got into Nasrullah and descendents, I had said, in another post that never made it here, that Secretariat got his stamina and legs from Princequillo. He also got his temperament from his dam’s (Princequillo) side, or he never might have been the great horse he became. Nasrullah was an example of a horse whose temperament held him back. That line was also primarily short running horses, something which Princequillo improved upon. In short, Secretariat could be Secretariat, fast and able to carry it, because of Princequillo- and the very rare alignment of greatness that occurs so rarely. To disparage Princequillo’s role in producing Secretariat to total exclusion- well, it shows something, let’s just put it that way.
www.scribd.com/.../Secretariat
“…while the fact that both stallions stood at Claiborne had something to do with the Nasrullah-Princequillo nick, there really was an unusual affinity between the two lines. Princequillo sired horses of stamina, durability, and even temperament while the Nasrullahs often had exceptional speed, soundness issues, and attitude problems. The blend, when it worked, could produce a special racehorse.”
The argument against Princequillo could just as well apply to Dynaformer, FOR HE SUPPLIES THE SAME FUNCTION in the cross with LVR. He supplied stamina and soundness although in his case, not temperament. And a rare alignment struck again in Barbaro.
And that is why the debate about outcross blood is relevant to this blog. It was an outcross that got a Barbaro, just as it did a Secretariat. (Barbaro is an almost total outcross, with only Nashua repeating twice through the 5th, Secretariat was a total outcross through 5 generations)
I will follow with sources you can read for yourselves about soundness, etc. I had quoted them in other posts that never made it to this blog. It’s the honest way to do it. Read for yourselves:
www.bloodhorse.com/.../evening-attire-solid-and-sharp
"In his case, he is inbred 4 x 4 to Raise a Native, a blazing-fast horse whose combination of extreme speed, heavy muscling, and inadequate underpinnings led to his retirement with a bowed tendon after just four starts. At stud, Raise a Native had a justified reputation for throwing progeny that shared both his great virtue (speed) and his great fault (unsoundness)."
www.courier-journal.com/.../article
www.pedigreepost.net/.../SoundnessAvalynHunter.html
pedigreecurmudgeon.blogspot.com/.../native-dancers-ankles.html
www.thoroughbredreview.com/eightbelles.htm
www.courier-journal.com/fdcp
(Note that Affirmed and Alydar are mentioned as sound individuals from the RAN line and I’m saying that here and not excluding it. But, they also came from mare’s of older bloodlines- keep in mind the era was the 70’s. Alydar’s dam was a 1965 mare and Affirmed’s dam 1962. Seth Hancock’s statement is noteworthy.)
www.werkhorse.com/.../2005_teamwork.pdf
Outcrosses dominate the Triple Crown and Breeders’ Cup
“What I am suggesting, rather, is that the breed is being painted
into a corner.”
What I found about advise in breeding La Ville Rouge to Dynaformer:
www.thoroughbredtimes.com/.../Profile-on-Lael-Farm.aspx
“We’ve always loved Dynaformer for his versatility, and we’ve watched some of his renowned grass horses,” Gretchen said. “We use Nicoma Bloodstock, Headley Bell, and it was his advice to breed that mare to Dynaformer.” (Not, apparently, Anne Peters and this is from the Jackson’s)
This article changed my thinking about soundness of American Thoroughbreds vs European Thoroughbreds:
www.opencomputing.ca/.../Puzzle%20of%20many%20pieces.pdf
www.opencomputing.ca/.../Corruption%20of%20a%20legacy.pdf
Princequillo
www.thoroughbredtimes.com/.../princequillo.pdf
www.time.com/.../0,9171,907424,00.html
"The best way to describe Bold Ruler's offspring," says Mrs. Tweedy, "is that they've been precocious and brilliant. Most of them have run their best at age two, at the shorter distances, and have been something of a disappointment at three, when they're asked to go farther. Also Bold Ruler was arthritic, and there's a tendency to unsoundness in the family." That means his offspring tend to go lame, early and often. “
“But Penny Tweedy has a breeding theory based on the belief that every horse, male or female, has some defects; the trick is to cross bloodlines so that the dam's virtues cancel out the sire's flaws and vice versa. According to this theory, she had the ideal mate for Bold Ruler—a mare called Somethingroyal, daughter of a very different kind of sire named Princequillo. “
www.thoroughbredtimes.com/.../The-end-of-innocence.aspx
(About Bold Ruler and, potentially, bute)
Finally, and very currently, did anyone read this on Bloodhorse?
cs.bloodhorse.com/.../is-the-american-thoroughbred-a-separate-breed.aspx
“Is the American Thoroughbred a Separate Breed?”
By all means, do read from the links provided and search for more information on your own. Don’t just depend on the opinions of others on this forum, including mine.
Now, for some FUN:
For fun, reading about some bloodlines and classics from the past. Only part of the book is online, but it’s a fun read:
books.google.com/books
A neat article about Zenyatta’s exercise rider:
www.thepilot.com/.../se...ok-willard-on
This is my sixth or seventh sent since 9/17, the last one posted to this forum. (Now #8)(Now #9)
This one might get posted, now that this thread will largely be ignored for the new one.
What started the debate about bloodlines were posts congratulating the Jackson’s on the purchase of a filly with no Mr. Prospector lines. There was nothing in those posts to offend but a certain poster took umbrage- as they have done before on this blog- because the soundness problems go back largely to their idol, Native Dancer. They then posted that by “dissing” Mr. Prospector, it was dissing Barbaro and the brothers. This is a red herring argument:
"A red herring is an idiom referring to a device which intends to divert the audience from the truth or an item of significance."
That comment was meant to illicit negative emotions about posts that valued a horse with no Mr. Prospector.
On the contrary, it’s paying the highest compliment to the Jackson’s on their choice of this filly. Their following purchase, of Check the Label, was almost as good with only two crosses to Northern Dancer. AS I HAD STATED, this was very good because of the proliferation of those bloodlines in TB’s today and the need for outcrosses. In fact, the outcross of Dynaformer to LVR is a sterling example. What I postulated, was the chance for a totally non-ND/ND stallion from the first filly, if she ran well and produced well. That is a good thing in terms of what the breed could use right now.
Instead, people were pelted with how good so-so was because they led this stat or that. Ironically, the fact that Mr. P (In a different era) led stats that happen to coincide with the decline in soundness, while Princequillo was a source of soundness, seemed to elude them, as does the fact that no breed can maintain when the gene pool gets too narrow. See below for recent article on Bloodhorse. It’s a very narrow viewpoint that only points to stats. There is a consequence for those stats and it’s not pretty. Because something is popular does not make it good.
Regarding Princequillo, even Ann Peters, who I believe was quoted (without source) before, said this of Princequillo:
"In my opinion, inbreeding to Princequillo is one of the best things you can do to get that foundation for stamina and soundness."
Anne Peters, co-author: Patterns of Greatness II, the Americans.
And since somehow the debate got into Nasrullah and descendents, I had said, in another post that never made it here, that Secretariat got his stamina and legs from Princequillo. He also got his temperament from his dam’s (Princequillo) side, or he never might have been the great horse he became. Nasrullah was an example of a horse whose temperament held him back. That line was also primarily short running horses, something which Princequillo improved upon. In short, Secretariat could be Secretariat, fast and able to carry it, because of Princequillo- and the very rare alignment of greatness that occurs so rarely. To disparage Princequillo’s role in producing Secretariat to total exclusion- well, it shows something, let’s just put it that way.
www.scribd.com/.../Secretariat
“…while the fact that both stallions stood at Claiborne had something to do with the Nasrullah-Princequillo nick, there really was an unusual affinity between the two lines. Princequillo sired horses of stamina, durability, and even temperament while the Nasrullahs often had exceptional speed, soundness issues, and attitude problems. The blend, when it worked, could produce a special racehorse.”
The argument against Princequillo could just as well apply to Dynaformer, FOR HE SUPPLIES THE SAME FUNCTION in the cross with LVR. He supplied stamina and soundness although in his case, not temperament. And a rare alignment struck again in Barbaro.
And that is why the debate about outcross blood is relevant to this blog. It was an outcross that got a Barbaro, just as it did a Secretariat. (Barbaro is an almost total outcross, with only Nashua repeating twice through the 5th, Secretariat was a total outcross through 5 generations)
I will follow with sources you can read for yourselves about soundness, etc. I had quoted them in other posts that never made it to this blog. It’s the honest way to do it. Read for yourselves:
www.bloodhorse.com/.../evening-attire-solid-and-sharp
"In his case, he is inbred 4 x 4 to Raise a Native, a blazing-fast horse whose combination of extreme speed, heavy muscling, and inadequate underpinnings led to his retirement with a bowed tendon after just four starts. At stud, Raise a Native had a justified reputation for throwing progeny that shared both his great virtue (speed) and his great fault (unsoundness)."
www.courier-journal.com/.../article
www.pedigreepost.net/.../SoundnessAvalynHunter.html
pedigreecurmudgeon.blogspot.com/.../native-dancers-ankles.html
www.thoroughbredreview.com/eightbelles.htm
www.courier-journal.com/fdcp
(Note that Affirmed and Alydar are mentioned as sound individuals from the RAN line and I’m saying that here and not excluding it. But, they also came from mare’s of older bloodlines- keep in mind the era was the 70’s. Alydar’s dam was a 1965 mare and Affirmed’s dam 1962. Seth Hancock’s statement is noteworthy.)
www.werkhorse.com/.../2005_teamwork.pdf
Outcrosses dominate the Triple Crown and Breeders’ Cup
“What I am suggesting, rather, is that the breed is being painted
into a corner.”
What I found about advise in breeding La Ville Rouge to Dynaformer:
www.thoroughbredtimes.com/.../Profile-on-Lael-Farm.aspx
“We’ve always loved Dynaformer for his versatility, and we’ve watched some of his renowned grass horses,” Gretchen said. “We use Nicoma Bloodstock, Headley Bell, and it was his advice to breed that mare to Dynaformer.” (Not, apparently, Anne Peters and this is from the Jackson’s)
This article changed my thinking about soundness of American Thoroughbreds vs European Thoroughbreds:
www.opencomputing.ca/.../Puzzle%20of%20many%20pieces.pdf
www.opencomputing.ca/.../Corruption%20of%20a%20legacy.pdf
Princequillo
www.thoroughbredtimes.com/.../princequillo.pdf
www.time.com/.../0,9171,907424,00.html
"The best way to describe Bold Ruler's offspring," says Mrs. Tweedy, "is that they've been precocious and brilliant. Most of them have run their best at age two, at the shorter distances, and have been something of a disappointment at three, when they're asked to go farther. Also Bold Ruler was arthritic, and there's a tendency to unsoundness in the family." That means his offspring tend to go lame, early and often. “
“But Penny Tweedy has a breeding theory based on the belief that every horse, male or female, has some defects; the trick is to cross bloodlines so that the dam's virtues cancel out the sire's flaws and vice versa. According to this theory, she had the ideal mate for Bold Ruler—a mare called Somethingroyal, daughter of a very different kind of sire named Princequillo. “
www.thoroughbredtimes.com/.../The-end-of-innocence.aspx
(About Bold Ruler and, potentially, bute)
Finally, and very currently, did anyone read this on Bloodhorse?
cs.bloodhorse.com/.../is-the-american-thoroughbred-a-separate-breed.aspx
“Is the American Thoroughbred a Separate Breed?”
By all means, do read from the links provided and search for more information on your own. Don’t just depend on the opinions of others on this forum, including mine.
Now, for some FUN:
For fun, reading about some bloodlines and classics from the past. Only part of the book is online, but it’s a fun read:
books.google.com/books
A neat article about Zenyatta’s exercise rider:
www.thepilot.com/.../se...ok-willard-on
Maybe without the count?
What started the debate about bloodlines were posts congratulating the Jackson’s on the purchase of a filly with no Mr. Prospector lines. There was nothing in those posts to offend but a certain poster took umbrage- as they have done before on this blog- because the soundness problems go back largely to their idol, Native Dancer. They then posted that by “dissing” Mr. Prospector, it was dissing Barbaro and the brothers. This is a red herring argument:
"A red herring is an idiom referring to a device which intends to divert the audience from the truth or an item of significance."
That comment was meant to illicit negative emotions about posts that valued a horse with no Mr. Prospector.
On the contrary, it’s paying the highest compliment to the Jackson’s on their choice of this filly. Their following purchase, of Check the Label, was almost as good with only two crosses to Northern Dancer. AS I HAD STATED, this was very good because of the proliferation of those bloodlines in TB’s today and the need for outcrosses. In fact, the outcross of Dynaformer to LVR is a sterling example. What I postulated, was the chance for a totally non-ND/ND stallion from the first filly, if she ran well and produced well. That is a good thing in terms of what the breed could use right now.
Instead, people were pelted with how good so-so was because they led this stat or that. Ironically, the fact that Mr. P (In a different era) led stats that happen to coincide with the decline in soundness, while Princequillo was a source of soundness, seemed to elude them, as does the fact that no breed can maintain when the gene pool gets too narrow. See below for recent article on Bloodhorse. It’s a very narrow viewpoint that only points to stats. There is a consequence for those stats and it’s not pretty. Because something is popular does not make it good.
Regarding Princequillo, even Ann Peters, who I believe was quoted (without source) before, said this of Princequillo:
"In my opinion, inbreeding to Princequillo is one of the best things you can do to get that foundation for stamina and soundness."
Anne Peters, co-author: Patterns of Greatness II, the Americans.
And since somehow the debate got into Nasrullah and descendents, I had said, in another post that never made it here, that Secretariat got his stamina and legs from Princequillo. He also got his temperament from his dam’s (Princequillo) side, or he never might have been the great horse he became. Nasrullah was an example of a horse whose temperament held him back. Look at the stories about Secretariat on this site. He does not act like a Nasrullah, he acts like a Princequillo. The Nasruallah line were also primarily short running horses, something which Princequillo improved upon. In short, Secretariat could be Secretariat, fast and able to carry it, because of Princequillo- and the very rare alignment of greatness that occurs so rarely. To disparage Princequillo’s role in producing Secretariat to total exclusion- well, it shows something, let’s just put it that way.
www.scribd.com/.../Secretariat
“…while the fact that both stallions stood at Claiborne had something to do with the Nasrullah-Princequillo nick, there really was an unusual affinity between the two lines. Princequillo sired horses of stamina, durability, and even temperament while the Nasrullahs often had exceptional speed, soundness issues, and attitude problems. The blend, when it worked, could produce a special racehorse.”
The argument against Princequillo applies to Dynaformer as well, for he supplies the SAME FUNCTION in the cross with LVR. He supplied stamina and soundness although in his case, not temperament. And a rare alignment struck again in Barbaro.
And that is why the debate about outcross blood is relevant to this blog. It was an outcross that got a Barbaro, just as it did a Secretariat. (Barbaro is an almost total outcross, with only Nashua repeating twice through the 5th, Secretariat was a total outcross through 5 generations)
I will follow with sources you can read for yourselves about soundness, etc. I had quoted them in other posts that never made it to this blog. It’s the honest way to do it. Read for yourselves:
www.bloodhorse.com/.../evening-attire-solid-and-sharp
"In his case, he is inbred 4 x 4 to Raise a Native, a blazing-fast horse whose combination of extreme speed, heavy muscling, and inadequate underpinnings led to his retirement with a bowed tendon after just four starts. At stud, Raise a Native had a justified reputation for throwing progeny that shared both his great virtue (speed) and his great fault (unsoundness)."
www.courier-journal.com/.../article
www.pedigreepost.net/.../SoundnessAvalynHunter.html
pedigreecurmudgeon.blogspot.com/.../native-dancers-ankles.html
www.thoroughbredreview.com/eightbelles.htm
www.courier-journal.com/fdcp
(Note that Affirmed and Alydar are mentioned as sound individuals from the RAN line and I’m saying that here and not excluding it. But, they also came from mare’s of older bloodlines- keep in mind the era was the 70’s. Alydar’s dam was a 1965 mare and Affirmed’s dam 1962. Seth Hancock’s statement is noteworthy.)
www.werkhorse.com/.../2005_teamwork.pdf
Outcrosses dominate the Triple Crown and Breeders’ Cup
“What I am suggesting, rather, is that the breed is being painted
into a corner.”
What I found about advise in breeding La Ville Rouge to Dynaformer:
www.thoroughbredtimes.com/.../Profile-on-Lael-Farm.aspx
“We’ve always loved Dynaformer for his versatility, and we’ve watched some of his renowned grass horses,” Gretchen said. “We use Nicoma Bloodstock, Headley Bell, and it was his advice to breed that mare to Dynaformer.” (Not, apparently, Anne Peters and this is from the Jackson’s)
This article changed my thinking about soundness of American Thoroughbreds vs European Thoroughbreds:
www.opencomputing.ca/.../Puzzle%20of%20many%20pieces.pdf
www.opencomputing.ca/.../Corruption%20of%20a%20legacy.pdf
Princequillo
www.thoroughbredtimes.com/.../princequillo.pdf
www.time.com/.../0,9171,907424,00.html
"The best way to describe Bold Ruler's offspring," says Mrs. Tweedy, "is that they've been precocious and brilliant. Most of them have run their best at age two, at the shorter distances, and have been something of a disappointment at three, when they're asked to go farther. Also Bold Ruler was arthritic, and there's a tendency to unsoundness in the family." That means his offspring tend to go lame, early and often. “
“But Penny Tweedy has a breeding theory based on the belief that every horse, male or female, has some defects; the trick is to cross bloodlines so that the dam's virtues cancel out the sire's flaws and vice versa. According to this theory, she had the ideal mate for Bold Ruler—a mare called Somethingroyal, daughter of a very different kind of sire named Princequillo. “
www.thoroughbredtimes.com/.../The-end-of-innocence.aspx
(About Bold Ruler and, potentially, bute)
Finally, and very currently, did anyone read this on Bloodhorse?
cs.bloodhorse.com/.../is-the-american-thoroughbred-a-separate-breed.aspx
“Is the American Thoroughbred a Separate Breed?”
By all means, do read from the links provided and search for more information on your own. Don’t just depend on the opinions of others on this forum, including mine.
Now, for some FUN:
For fun, reading about some bloodlines and classics from the past. Only part of the book is online, but it’s a fun read:
books.google.com/books
A neat article about Zenyatta’s exercise rider:
www.thepilot.com/.../se...ok-willard-on
What started the debate about bloodlines were posts congratulating the Jackson’s on the purchase of a filly with no Mr. Prospector lines. There was nothing in those posts to offend but a certain poster took umbrage- as they have done before on this blog- because the soundness problems go back largely to their idol, Native Dancer. They then posted that by “dissing” Mr. Prospector, it was dissing Barbaro and the brothers. This is a red herring argument:
"A red herring is an idiom referring to a device which intends to divert the audience from the truth or an item of significance."
That comment was meant to illicit negative emotions about posts that valued a horse with no Mr. Prospector.
On the contrary, it’s paying the highest compliment to the Jackson’s on their choice of this filly. Their following purchase, of Check the Label, was almost as good with only two crosses to Northern Dancer. AS I HAD STATED, this was very good because of the proliferation of those bloodlines in TB’s today and the need for outcrosses. In fact, the outcross of Dynaformer to LVR is a sterling example. What I postulated, was the chance for a totally non-ND/ND stallion from the first filly, if she ran well and produced well. That is a good thing in terms of what the breed could use right now.
Instead, people were pelted with how good so-so was because they led this stat or that. Ironically, the fact that Mr. P (In a different era) led stats that happen to coincide with the decline in soundness, while Princequillo was a source of soundness, seemed to elude them, as does the fact that no breed can maintain when the gene pool gets too narrow. See below for recent article on Bloodhorse. It’s a very narrow viewpoint that only points to stats. There is a consequence for those stats and it’s not pretty. Because something is popular does not make it good.
Regarding Princequillo, even Ann Peters, who I believe was quoted (without source) before, said this of Princequillo:
"In my opinion, inbreeding to Princequillo is one of the best things you can do to get that foundation for stamina and soundness."
Anne Peters, co-author: Patterns of Greatness II, the Americans.
And since somehow the debate got into Nasrullah and descendents, I had said, in another post that never made it here, that Secretariat got his stamina and legs from Princequillo. He also got his temperament from his dam’s (Princequillo) side, or he never might have been the great horse he became. Nasrullah was an example of a horse whose temperament held him back. Look at the stories about Secretariat on this site. He does not act like a Nasrullah, he acts like a Princequillo. The Nasruallah line were also primarily short running horses, something which Princequillo improved upon. In short, Secretariat could be Secretariat, fast and able to carry it, because of Princequillo- and the very rare alignment of greatness that occurs so rarely. To disparage Princequillo’s role in producing Secretariat to total exclusion- well, it shows something, let’s just put it that way.
www.scribd.com/.../Secretariat
“…while the fact that both stallions stood at Claiborne had something to do with the Nasrullah-Princequillo nick, there really was an unusual affinity between the two lines. Princequillo sired horses of stamina, durability, and even temperament while the Nasrullahs often had exceptional speed, soundness issues, and attitude problems. The blend, when it worked, could produce a special racehorse.”
The argument against Princequillo applies to Dynaformer as well, for he supplies the SAME FUNCTION in the cross with LVR. He supplied stamina and soundness although in his case, not temperament. And a rare alignment struck again in Barbaro.
And that is why the debate about outcross blood is relevant to this blog. It was an outcross that got a Barbaro, just as it did a Secretariat. (Barbaro is an almost total outcross, with only Nashua repeating twice through the 5th, Secretariat was a total outcross through 5 generations)
I will follow with sources you can read for yourselves about soundness, etc. I had quoted them in other posts that never made it to this blog. It’s the honest way to do it. Read for yourselves:
www.bloodhorse.com/.../evening-attire-solid-and-sharp
"In his case, he is inbred 4 x 4 to Raise a Native, a blazing-fast horse whose combination of extreme speed, heavy muscling, and inadequate underpinnings led to his retirement with a bowed tendon after just four starts. At stud, Raise a Native had a justified reputation for throwing progeny that shared both his great virtue (speed) and his great fault (unsoundness)."
www.courier-journal.com/.../article
www.pedigreepost.net/.../SoundnessAvalynHunter.html
pedigreecurmudgeon.blogspot.com/.../native-dancers-ankles.html
www.thoroughbredreview.com/eightbelles.htm
www.courier-journal.com/fdcp
(Note that Affirmed and Alydar are mentioned as sound individuals from the RAN line and I’m saying that here and not excluding it. But, they also came from mare’s of older bloodlines- keep in mind the era was the 70’s. Alydar’s dam was a 1965 mare and Affirmed’s dam 1962. Seth Hancock’s statement is noteworthy.)
www.werkhorse.com/.../2005_teamwork.pdf
Outcrosses dominate the Triple Crown and Breeders’ Cup
“What I am suggesting, rather, is that the breed is being painted
into a corner.”
What I found about advise in breeding La Ville Rouge to Dynaformer:
www.thoroughbredtimes.com/.../Profile-on-Lael-Farm.aspx
“We’ve always loved Dynaformer for his versatility, and we’ve watched some of his renowned grass horses,” Gretchen said. “We use Nicoma Bloodstock, Headley Bell, and it was his advice to breed that mare to Dynaformer.” (Not, apparently, Anne Peters and this is from the Jackson’s)
This article changed my thinking about soundness of American Thoroughbreds vs European Thoroughbreds:
www.opencomputing.ca/.../Puzzle%20of%20many%20pieces.pdf
www.opencomputing.ca/.../Corruption%20of%20a%20legacy.pdf
Princequillo
www.thoroughbredtimes.com/.../princequillo.pdf
www.time.com/.../0,9171,907424,00.html
"The best way to describe Bold Ruler's offspring," says Mrs. Tweedy, "is that they've been precocious and brilliant. Most of them have run their best at age two, at the shorter distances, and have been something of a disappointment at three, when they're asked to go farther. Also Bold Ruler was arthritic, and there's a tendency to unsoundness in the family." That means his offspring tend to go lame, early and often. “
“But Penny Tweedy has a breeding theory based on the belief that every horse, male or female, has some defects; the trick is to cross bloodlines so that the dam's virtues cancel out the sire's flaws and vice versa. According to this theory, she had the ideal mate for Bold Ruler—a mare called Somethingroyal, daughter of a very different kind of sire named Princequillo. “
www.thoroughbredtimes.com/.../The-end-of-innocence.aspx
(About Bold Ruler and, potentially, bute)
Finally, and very currently, did anyone read this on Bloodhorse?
cs.bloodhorse.com/.../is-the-american-thoroughbred-a-separate-breed.aspx
“Is the American Thoroughbred a Separate Breed?”
By all means, do read from the links provided and search for more information on your own. Don’t just depend on the opinions of others on this forum, including mine.
Now, for some FUN:
For fun, reading about some bloodlines and classics from the past. Only part of the book is online, but it’s a fun read:
books.google.com/books
A neat article about Zenyatta’s exercise rider:
www.thepilot.com/.../se...ok-willard-on
Mary
I saw that picture on e-bay for $25.00 Sunday, maybe GregJ is selling them over there. I think Greg did take that picture, well maybe not, it did not have his name by the picture...
Seems to me your taking alot of heat on the other blog, ugg, hang in there you make sense to me....the horses you just named are awesome and I do love Mr.Prospector because of the boys...
Go Nicanor!!!!Go Lentenor!!!!
Go Margano!!!!love you boys!!!
I saw that picture on e-bay for $25.00 Sunday, maybe GregJ is selling them over there. I think Greg did take that picture, well maybe not, it did not have his name by the picture...
Seems to me your taking alot of heat on the other blog, ugg, hang in there you make sense to me....the horses you just named are awesome and I do love Mr.Prospector because of the boys...
Go Nicanor!!!!Go Lentenor!!!!
Go Margano!!!!love you boys!!!
just saw a horse in the Dallas Joshua area for 100.00 a stallion that has a stud attitude...guess I cant have him..he is 16.2 hands and weighs around 800 lbs, girl cant get near him cause he wants to overpower her..halter only trained that she can see, doesnt know if there is a tatoo or not, cant get close enough...too bad...wonder, if he could be gelded and made into a horse that could be nice???
need to call gallopgirl and see if she could tame him down.....
need to call gallopgirl and see if she could tame him down.....
Thank you Ragsy, yes I am taking a lot of heat, that's okay, I will be respectful to everyone, in spite of how I am treated.
Hi!
The photos are very much appreciated.
Nicanor and Lentenor are absolutely gorgeous!
Love to both of them.
Thank you so much!
The photos are very much appreciated.
Nicanor and Lentenor are absolutely gorgeous!
Love to both of them.
Thank you so much!
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